Assalamu alaikum, Sister Julie,
Thank you again sharing your personal journey to the Truth with me.
I will straight jump into the subject. I am excited to comment on the points you have raised in this email.
"GOD MUST BE Absolute. WHY MUST GOD BE Absolute?"
As far as our conclusion is concerned, God must be Absolute. We do not know what Absolute really is because we cannot comprehend it. That does not mean, we cannot comprehend Absolute, therefore, we do not know God.
Yes, again, it is our conclusion that the Creator of this world MUST be Absolute. That is what we can know. We do not and cannot know the Essence of God. That is the way we know God. If i say, i know the essence of God, that means i still did not know what God, the Creator is. The more we are aware that the Essence of God cannot be known, the better conception we are having about God, therefore, better believing in God. That means God must be, for us, Absolute.
"...i dont know why i can't confirm this,"
Because you may be deciding about God Himself that as if saying, "O God, you MUST be Absolute. You cannot change yourself, i decided about You that You MUST be Absolute."
You are not imposing your idea on God, you are talking about your own conclusion that God must be absolute, that is why i cannot imagine Him. I cannot think of Him in terms of anything in this universe. I think, "Wa lam yakun lahu kufuwan ahad" (and there is nothing that could be compared with Him) (112: 4) means this.
"i want REAL faith, GENUINE, TRUE BELIEF! i need to FINISH the process and figure out HOW through reasoning with the proper methodology TO CONFIRM that there is only ONE God TO MYSELF."
That is every body's expectation. To be sure of one's belief is possible, but we need to be aware of what we are talking about. We are talking about belief. That means, we are NOT talking about a mathematical equation.
In mathematics, simply, we take the two sides of the equation as can be equally validated. What i mean by this is, for example, 2+2= 4.
Here we can count 2 and another 2 and put them together and we can count 4 as well. In logical conclusion the matter is not the same. For example, let's look at a machine. Seeing that ever part of the machine is integrated into the whole mechanism of the machine that human mind cannot stop asking WHO (referring to a conscious being) put these parts in such a wise way by aiming at the system of this machine will function for whatever the purpose of the machine is. Think about this machine as one is continuously being renewed! Then the logic concludes that the maker of this machine must be someone who has conscious, purpose, knowledge, power etc. etc. All the qualities of the machine witness that the maker must have such and such qualities.
CAN WE OBSERVE THE MAKER OF THE MACHINE AS WE OBSERVED THE MACHINE ITSELF? NO! THAT IS OUR LOGICAL CONCLUSION BY USING OUR HUMAN QUALITIES. WE SAY THE MAKER MUST HAVE SUCH AND SUCH QUALITIES, AND THEREFORE, MUST BE A CONSCIOUS, .... BEING, ETC.
That is what we are trying to make clear when we say, "Do not confuse the spheres!" "Do not confuse the logical conclusions with mathematical equations. Do not try to observe the mind, the artistry quality, intention, aesthetics, knowledge and even the body of the maker of the machine as we observed the qualities of the machine itself. The conclusion is this: The maker must have these qualities. We do not have to experience these qualities on the maker of the machine as we did on the machine. The qualities of the machine are the WITNESSES OF THE EXISTENCE OF THE QUALITIES OF THE MAKER. THAT IS WHAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO CONCLUDE, TO BE SURE OF, TO CONFIRM.
The conclusions of the logical activities are NOT necessarily to be observed and counted or witnessed as it is the case in mathematical equations. We can regard the number 2 and the number 4 as equally to be evaluated; we can count them, for instance, put 2 marbles here and another 2 marbles there and put them together and count the 4 marbles again to confirm that the adding activity is correct. The activity will be the same: Counting them as we did before the adding activity. We can count them at the same level of existence.
How about the logical conclusions? When we see a fruit on a tree, human logic asks, "How did the fruit on the branch of the tree come into existence? Can it be the product of the particles of the tree or other seemingly contributing elements in the existence of the fruit? We are seeing the fruit, the tree, the DNA structure of the cells of the tree, the water, soil, air molecules, light photons or their component parts, whatever else... Then, human logic says, these component parts of the tree or the fruit cannot be taken as responsible for the existence of the fruit, because they do not have the quality to determine the future in which the fruit will exist. They do not possess any quality to give life, shape, taste, beauty...i.e. all the wise, meaningful, purposeful qualities of the fruit to the fruit. At least, they have no quality to determine the future because every moment is a brand new creation, and none of the existing things in the world can know the future, CAN GUARANTEE the future. They cannot be the reason for the existence of any thing which exists after their existence. That is the argument we have been emphasizing on.
We observe the fruit and logically conclude that the Creator of the fruit MUST HAVE SUCH AND SUCH QUALITIES, AND THEREFORE, HE MUST BE ETERNAL, for example, after observing that the existence of the fruit is being renewed continuously, and in harmony with not only the other fruit of the same kind, but with all the fruits, with all the living beings who benefit from it, in fact, with all the creation in space and time. Our logic says, if we do not attribute the existence of this fruit to something which is not ABSOLUTE, then, it is not possible for us to CONFIRM that this SOURCE can be responsible for the existence of the fruit.
Is it clear now that we are not going to expect to observe our logical conclusion that the Creator must be Absolute as we observed the tree?
This point is extremely important for us; we have to always bear in mind.
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We are talking about our conclusion at the end of our observation of the this universe, under the guidance of the qualities of the things. We need to be honest to ourselves not to contradict our human qualities; reasoning, senses, emotions, i.e. humanity. The qualities of the things tell me that they cannot come into existence out of chaos, coincidence or by themselves (people call it nature). And also the same qualities of the things demonstrate in front of our minds that in order for the things to exist they need an Absolute, infinite Source. That means, the whole universe itself cannot give existence neither to itself nor to even an atom. An atom is so perfect that its existence cannot be accidental. Whoever has been giving existence to this atom continuously MUST of necessity be Absolute, and not of the same nature of this universe. He must be the Giver of existence to this universe and whatever in it. We see the compatibility here between the conclusion of our experience in this world by using our intellect and the statements we hear from the Qur'an:
"2:164 (Asad) Verily, in the creation of the heavens and of the earth, and the succession of night and day: and in the ships that speed through the sea with what is useful to man: and in the waters which God sends down from the sky, giving life thereby to the earth after it had been lifeless, and causing all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon: and in the change of the winds, and the clouds that run their appointed courses between sky and earth: [in all this] there are messages indeed for people who use their reason."
6:74 (Asad) AND, LO, [thus] spoke Abraham unto his father Azar: "Takest thou idols for gods? Verily, I see that thou and thy people have obviously gone astray!"
6:75 (Asad) And thus We gave Abraham [his first] insight into [God's] mighty dominion over the heavens and the earth - and [this] to the end that he might become one of those who are inwardly sure.
6:76 (Asad) Then, when the night overshadowed him with its darkness, he beheld a star;., [and] he exclaimed, "This is my Sustainer!" -but when it went down, he said, "I LOVE NOT the things that go down.
[This is my comment: Attention: Abraham does not say "I do not want" or "I do not believe". He says "I do not love", speaks with his all human qualities.]
6:77 (Asad) Then, when he beheld the moon rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer!"-but when it went down, he said, "Indeed, if my Sustainer guide me not. I will most certainly become one of the people who go astray!"
6:78 (Asad) Then, when he beheld the sun rising, he said, "This is my Sustainer! This one is the greatest [of all]!" - but when it [too] went down, he exclaimed: "O my people! Behold, far be it from me to ascribe divinity, as you do, to aught beside God!
6:79 (Asad) Behold, unto Him who brought into being the heavens and the earth have I turned my face, having turned away from all that is false; and I am not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him."
# 50:6 (Asad) Do they not look at the sky above them - how We have built it and made it beautiful and free of all faults?
# 50:7 (Asad) And the earth - We have spread it wide, and set upon it mountains firm, and caused it to bring forth plants of all beauteous kinds, -
# 50:8 (Asad) thus offering an insight and a reminder unto every human being who willingly turns unto God.
# 50:9 (Asad) And We send down from the skies water rich in blessings, and cause thereby gardens to grow, and fields of grain,
# 50:10 (Asad) and tall palm-trees with their thickly-clustered dates,
# 50:11 (Asad) as sustenance apportioned to men; and by [all] this We bring dead land to life: [and] even so will be [man’s] coming-forth from death.
# 88:17 (Asad) DO, THEN, they [who deny resurrection] never gaze at the clouds pregnant with water, [and observe] how they are created?
# 88:18 (Asad) And at the sky, how it is raised aloft?
# 88:19 (Asad) And at the mountains, how firmly they are reared?
# 88:20 (Asad) And at the earth, how it is spread out?
# 80:24 (Asad) Let man, then, consider [the sources of] his food:
# 80:25 (Asad) [how it is] that We pour down water, pouring it down abundantly;
# 80:26 (Asad) and then We cleave the earth [with new growth], cleaving it asunder,
# 80:27 (Asad) and thereupon We cause grain to grow out of it,
# 80:28 (Asad) and vines and edible plants,
# 80:29 (Asad) and olive trees and date-palms,
# 80:30 (Asad) and gardens dense with foliage,
# 80:31 (Asad) and fruits and herbage,
# 80:32 (Asad) for you and for your animals to enjoy.
# My comment: [Purposefulness is stressed here]
#
22:18 (Asad) ART THOU NOT aware that before God prostrate themselves all [things and beings] that are in the heavens and all that are on earth the sun, and the moon, and the stars, and the mountains, and the trees, and the beasts? And many human beings [submit to God consciously], whereas many [others, having defied Him,] will inevitably have to suffer [in the life to come]; and he whom God shall scorn [on Resurrection Day] will have none who could bestow honour on him: for, verily, God does what He wills.
# 3:189 (Asad) AND UNTO GOD belongs the dominion over the heavens and the earth: and God has the power to will anything.
# 3:190 (Asad) Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth, and in the succession of night and day, there are indeed messages for all who are endowed with insight,
# 3:191 (Asad) [and] who remember God when they stand, and when they sit, and when they lie down to sleep, and [thus] reflect on the creation of the heavens and the earth: "O our Sustainer! Thou hast not created [aught of] this without meaning and purpose. Limitless art Thou in Thy glory! Keep us safe, then, from suffering through fire!
38:27 (Asad) AND [thus it is:] We have not created heaven and earth and all that is between them without meaning and purpose, as is the surmise of those who are bent on denying the truth: but then, woe from the fire [of hell] unto all who are bent on denying the truth!
21:16 (Asad) AND [know that] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play:
# 44:38 (Asad) For [thus it is:] We have not created the heavens and the earth and all that is between them in mere idle play:
#
# 44:39 (Asad) none of this have We created without truth: but most of them understand it not.
# 31:10 (Asad) He [it is who] has created the skies without any supports that you could see, and has placed firm mountains upon the earth, lest it sway with you, and has caused all manner of living creatures to multiply thereon. And We send down water from the skies, and thus We cause every noble kind [of life] to grow on earth.
#
# 31:11 (Asad) [All] this is God’s creation: show Me, then, what others than He may have created! Nay, but the evildoers are obviously lost in error!
35:40 (Asad) Say: “Have you ever [really] considered those beings and forces to whom you ascribe a share in God’s divinity, [and] whom you invoke beside God? Show me what it is that they have created on earth - or do [you claim that] they have a share in [governing] the heavens?” Have We ever vouchsafed them a divine writ on which they could rely as evidence [in support of their views]? Nay, [the hope which] the evildoers hold out to one another [is] nothing but a delusion.
# 27:60 (Asad) Nay - who is it that has created the heavens and the earth, and sends down for you [life-giving] water from the skies? For it is by this means that We cause gardens of shining beauty to grow - [whereas] it is not in your power to cause [even one single of] its trees to grow! Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, they [who think so] are people who swerve [from the path of reason]
# 27:61 (Asad) Nay - who is it that has made the earth a fitting abode [for living things], and has caused running waters [to flow] in its midst, and has set upon it mountains firm, and has placed a barrier between the two great bodies of water? Could there be any divine power besides God? Nay, most of those [who think so] do not know [what they are saying]!
# 27:62 (Asad) Nay - who is it that responds to the distressed when he calls out to Him, and who removes the ill [that caused the distress], and has made you inherit the earth? Could there be any divine power besides God? How seldom do you keep this in mind!
# 27:63 (Asad) Nay - who is it that guides you in the midst of the deep darkness of land and sea, and sends forth the winds as a glad tiding of His coming grace? Could there be any divine power besides God? Sublimely exalted is God above anything to which men may ascribe a share in His divinity!
# 27:64 (Asad) Nay - who is it that creates [all life] in the first instance, and then brings it forth anew? And who is it that provides you with sustenance out of heaven and earth? Could there be any divine power besides God? Say: “[If you think so,] produce your evidence - if you truly believe in your claim!”
# 12:105 (Asad) But [then] -how many a sign is there in the heavens and on earth which they pass by [unthinkingly], and on which they turn their backs! -
# 12:106 (Asad) And most of them do not even believe in God without [also] ascribing divine powers to other beings beside Him.
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We need to be sure what we are saying by this statement: "TO CONFIRM that there is only ONE God TO MYSELF
By this word "ONE" we should mean ABSOLUTE, not the number, one. two... Absoluteness is meant here, not the number. That is so important because it helps us not to think of God as being one not two, but the Creator must be absolute so there is nothing else has the quality of giving existence to anything. That is called TAWHID, oneness of deity, which is the backbone of the teaching of the Qur'an. Not only because the Qur'an said so, but our minds, too, say so. That is why we confirm the message of the Qur'an. It is compatible with what my human qualities say.
I think the challenge is driving from our conceptualization of the word, or the number ONE. It is nothing to do with the number ONE. ONENESS MEANS THERE IS NOTHING ELSE IN THIS WORD THAT HAS THIS QUALITY. This means, "La ilahe" i.e. no way to SHIRK, there is no deity in this world but the Creator of the universe MUST HAVE the quality of deity alone. It is He Who can be the Source of the existence of this world. Nothing in this world can create itself, since they themselves are in need of being created.
"Will they, then, ascribe divinity unto beings that cannot create anything, since they themselves are being created." 7: 191 (See also, 16: 20 and 25: 3).
Do you notice you are skipping the first step; "La ilahe". Without establishing "La ilahe" in our understanding, no way to be sure of "Illallah".
If we jump into "Illallah", then, it will be inevitable for us to ask , "How God must be One?" What does "God IS Absolute" mean? All these questions arise from thinking from "the sphere of God". Going out of this universe, which is impossible any way, but imagining that as if we have gone out of the universe, and then start thinking how God (in Himself) can be ...?
There can be no answer to this question as long as we were created beings, which is our reality. This kind of questions, then, become circular. How did we get into the non-created sphere that we are now questioning about its ESSENCE? We cannot get into that sphere.
Simply, what we can do only is this: By experiencing our created world we can conclude that our existence needs an Absolute Creator in order, for us, to explain this existence.
The qualities of any created being demonstrate that they cannot come into existence without a Source which has Absolute attributes because these qualities exist within the context of the whole universe. They all make at the end, a perfect harmony with each other. Each universe we have experienced is coming into existence continuously with again a perfect harmony, order, meaning etc. with the previous universes. Logically we can conclude that nothing in this world can be responsible for the existence of anything. This conclusion is to say "La ilahe". Since things exist and there is nothing with any kind of quality of being the Source of this existence, then, we conclude, "Illa Allah". This God MUST be Absolute as far as our human conclusion is concerned. We cannot attribute this world to anything but to an Absolute One.
"well, how can i believe it if i can't confirm it?"
No, no one can believe in God if they do not confirm it. In fact, those people who say that they believe in God, confirm something. But there are endless degrees of confirmation, that is why BELIEF HAS ENDLESS DEGREES. The more evidences we have to confirm, the higher, the stronger the belief is. A person (imaginary, no one knows who has what degree of belief) who has the simplest belief must have a simplest evidence. That is why the Qur'an and the human nature urge us to THINK ABOUT THE HEAVENS AND THE EARTH AND THE THINGS IN THEM. They are not created for nothing, or, as play things.
And come to a conclusion, THERE MUST BE A CREATOR WHO MUST BE ABSOLUTE IN HIS QUALITIES, ATTRIBUTES, NAMES whatever the word we use, does not matter. MUST BE IS IMPORTANT.
There are endless degrees in this MUST BE. We need to carry on paying attention to the Speech of God in both senses: ACTION ALONGSIDE WITH WORD (REVELATION).
"in order to confirm ONE God...."
The answer to this question is: In order to confirm that God, the Creator, MUST BE ONE. We need to change our expectations by changing our vocabulary first so that we will make the objectives clear.
The above quoted verses may be helpful to show us how to confirm God and His attributes. There are many more of them, but i just selected a few to draw our attention to how the Qur'an is teaching us to establish our belief in "Ghayb", the sphere which is beyond our human perception, and, at the same time, feel confident about our belief in "Ghayb", with a satisfaction of our heart.
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As you may experience that belief is different from feeling satisfied in our heart. That is another process.
In a nutshell: Belief is a logical, rational conclusion, which is absolutely necessary to start with. But it must develop with the satisfaction of heart. We experience this all the time. Life is not established on logical conclusions. Our decisions come usually from our emotions. I feel no one ever explain their love to their children or to an animal logically. We act on emotions, and emotions are beyond reasoning; more than reasoning. Attention: Not without reasoning, but more than that, beyond that!
This is a matter explained in this verse and also in a manner we experience in our daily life:
2:260 And, lo, Abraham said: "O my Sustainer! Show me how Thou givest life unto the dead!" Said He: "Do you not, then, believe?" (Abraham) answered: "Yea, but, to satisfy my own heart." Said He: "Take, then, four birds and teach them to obey thee; then place them separately on every hill [around thee]; then summon them: they will come flying to thee. And know that God is almighty, wise."
[My commentery: a physical experience is suggested here.]
God willing, this discussions will be helpful for all of us in our journey to attain to satisfaction of heart in our belief in God.
I would like to thank you again for your contribution to my understanding of my "belief" and realize where i am missing.
I am looking forward to hearing from you.
May God help us to take the Straight Path to be in His presence while we are in this world.
Your brother in the journey of belief in God, ali
Friday, April 30, 2010
Dicussions on TIME- 8 (Specific Question About Absolute)
salam alaikum Brother Ali,
i can't explain why or how, i think i'm having a small moment of experiential enlightenment, a mental/spiritual breakthrough...or it could be a breakdown! how would i know? hahaha
seriously, after being gone all afternoon and taking somewhat of a break (i never totally stop thinking about things) from all this TIME, Absolute, methodology or reasoning, confirmation, etc...i was sitting outside in the night air, looking at the sky and trees...pondering...and took it upon myself to test myself about what i understand and where i'm at (without respecting the wisdom that the teacher should test and be present for good reason!). suddenly i found myself in a sheer panic not knowing how to confirm a conclusion about God being Absolute..why God must be Absolute. i so hope you'll allow me to carry on a bit, essentially think through my process "out loud" here in writing...i really need to do this to get over this slump.
this email represents a very serious and intense mental/spiritual struggle through my process and shows where i'm at, where i'm stuck, and what i need help with...i thank God for allowing me to see even this much! if you don't mind helping me, inshallah, i'd be so relieved and extremely grateful! forgive any repetition, i'm spazzing out about my own beliefs and scared out of my wits as suddenly i don't see that i have solid beliefs...i'm witnessing my blindness with respect to HOW to make them strong! you may think, "well julie, duhhhh!! what do you think i've been trying to explain all along? this is what we've been talking about all this time, where have YOU been??? this is no big deal, it's easy!!" but really for me it IS a big deal...i feel like a tidal wave of enlightenment has just plowed me over and flooded my experience. the irony is that i have come to see that i can't see! just thinking on the irony by itself is enough to send me over the edge...fortunately, Allah gave me a good sense of humor which prevents that. and at this point, after putting myself through a virtual mental/spiritual boot camp the last 2 weeks over all of this, i'm not only struggling for real, i'm also almost laughing throughout this email...my conclusion is that it must be Allah's salvation and mercy to me!
earlier in the halaqa, i was able to clarify for myself (through what you said) that Absolute, by it's very definition, IS and can only be ONE. why? because Absolute is necessarily indivisible by definition..period! so i got the Absolute part of the conclusion, i don't have any problem with Absolute. but i'm missing the rest about: GOD MUST BE Absolute. WHY MUST GOD BE Absolute? because....because.......???? i don't know why!!!!! i've confirmed only what Absolute means, i failed to confirm why God must be Absolute! i'm shocked at myself....even worse is i dont know why i can't confirm this, it's just that i can't seem to on my own.
i know i believe in One God, so i'm not freaking out due to a sudden uncertainty of One God or not, i still "believe" there is only One God as i've always believed..it's all i've ever known. i'm disturbed near meltdown because NOW i don't know how or why i came to that conclusion of my belief..so i'm wonder silently, "well, how can i believe it if i can't confirm it? so does that mean i DON'T really believe in One God????" and yeah, that's meltdown for me! i can't say why i believe that, i don't know why....and the reason i don't know is because i never used any reason to come to that belief! so NOW i'm suddenly experiencing the meaning and importance of what this reasoning method TRULY IS and WHY i need it regarding my beliefs! i guess this is the "aha moment" where i've suddenly integrated the understanding of this methodology in my head into my total being such that when i applied this wisdom to myself, i found my mistakes....namely, that i have pathetically WEAK faith. I DON'T WANT WEAK FAITH, i want out of this weak and false junk ASAP, i want REAL faith, GENUINE, TRUE BELIEF! i need to FINISH the process and figure out HOW through reasoning with the proper methodology TO CONFIRM that there is only ONE God TO MYSELF. i'm experiencing that my belief is NOT based on proper reasoning, rather i've obviously imitated my belief from the past probably because i was told there's only One God when i was little, so i just believed it.
actually, with respect to my belief before now, i never had to come to ANY conclusion because i never thought about confirming One God, so i never saw the need to reason through anything before being introduced to this methodology....i just took it for granted (meaning i assumed which uses no reasoning whatsoever) there's one God. this "imitating a belief" completely sidesteps the very necessary reasoning process altogether. UGGHHH!!!! it's all coming clear to me now.
WHY is there only one God, how do i confirm one and not many? i can't answer that by saying, "well, there's only One God because He's Absolute"..or.."He's Absolute because He's the only One God"...that's circular reasoning/arguing. someone of polytheism ideology holds..."there's more than one god, and they're all absolute in their powers"..or.."there's more than one god because in my experiences, when i pray to the different gods i get answers from each of them". so in response to my hypothetical situation as i tested myself to prove to myself there is only One God, i sickeningly failed my test in the worst possible way because i can't see how to PROVE to MYSELF that God is ONE (i.e. Absolute) and not more than one! i only proved my belief that He is has been imitation all my life without realizing it until now (which also confirms that i've just been created anew..again!) if i can confirm my conclusion to MYSELF...BY WAY OF THIS METHODOLOGY...THEN AND ONLY THEN can i say my belief is true, sound, solid, genuine and my IMAN is strong!
in my panic to explain this and see through my own blindness, i went back to find one of your earlier emails. your reasoning about why God must be Absolute is:
" "La ilahe", then, the qualities apparent on the effect necessitates the existence of a Source which must of necessity for our reason be Absolute. This is "Illallah." "
"Why absolute? It is because of "continuous creation", equality of numbers, complexity, quality, beauty... before the Source. Only for the Absolute there is no difference between different numbers, different qualities, complexity or simplicity etc"
you know what? i'm still trying to digest what this means...i never understood and never asked for clarification earlier on this because oh nooooooo, stubborn me, i just HAD to "think" about this specific thing to challenge myself. now i regret not asking earlier, i wouldn't be struggling at all about this if i'd asked. this is the VERY THING i needed to understand MOST! now i realize it and i am feeling it! well, it cost me a bundle, but serves me right, that'll teach me not to be so stubborn, inshallah! would you mind going over these two statements again, particularly the second one? what do you mean? why can't there be more than One God when it comes to continuous creation? the rest of that sentence escapes me completely, what do you mean in your words?? can you expand your reasoning more on this? i need a baby abc's level explanation...i dont' get this yet.
and how funny is this, of all people during today's halaqa, it was ME who got stumped having to ask and carry on about: what's this "many individuals" stuff that Said Nursi says we are. and guess what? here it is ME who's now acutely aware and experiencing this very thing not even 8 hours later! hahaha. if that's not tevafuk in action, what is? i'm definitely not the same, clearly i've been created anew! my new personality, until Allah decides otherwise, is: QUEEN of "How Do I Confirm This" Land. i'm a master at this question now! i can just see it already, i'll be asking myself and everybody else this from now on. i wonder if other students who embark on the path of enlightenment really know what they're getting themselves into, hahaha. i wonder if they too experience a transient insanity every now and then as they witness their old selves being blasted asunder like tidal waves busting through their minds, clearing out the debris to pave the way for new light...or if it's just me...hahaha. it's a rhetorical question, no need to confirm it's me! :))
ultimately, all joking aside...the light that's really dawned for me tonight showed me where my weakness is...namely that i need to use the discussed reasoning method to confirm. otherwise i'm stuck with empty, meaningless, false beliefs. i knew this before, or so i thought i did...but tonight i really felt it. i was able to apply and thus experience where and why it's affecting my life with respect to my beliefs..that's the real enlightenment which wasn't this clear before. that's a plus! now i just need to work on how to do that. so returning back to ponder that....HOW....i.e. what specific information of my experiences of creation do i use to reason in order to confirm ONE God....
Julie
i can't explain why or how, i think i'm having a small moment of experiential enlightenment, a mental/spiritual breakthrough...or it could be a breakdown! how would i know? hahaha
seriously, after being gone all afternoon and taking somewhat of a break (i never totally stop thinking about things) from all this TIME, Absolute, methodology or reasoning, confirmation, etc...i was sitting outside in the night air, looking at the sky and trees...pondering...and took it upon myself to test myself about what i understand and where i'm at (without respecting the wisdom that the teacher should test and be present for good reason!). suddenly i found myself in a sheer panic not knowing how to confirm a conclusion about God being Absolute..why God must be Absolute. i so hope you'll allow me to carry on a bit, essentially think through my process "out loud" here in writing...i really need to do this to get over this slump.
this email represents a very serious and intense mental/spiritual struggle through my process and shows where i'm at, where i'm stuck, and what i need help with...i thank God for allowing me to see even this much! if you don't mind helping me, inshallah, i'd be so relieved and extremely grateful! forgive any repetition, i'm spazzing out about my own beliefs and scared out of my wits as suddenly i don't see that i have solid beliefs...i'm witnessing my blindness with respect to HOW to make them strong! you may think, "well julie, duhhhh!! what do you think i've been trying to explain all along? this is what we've been talking about all this time, where have YOU been??? this is no big deal, it's easy!!" but really for me it IS a big deal...i feel like a tidal wave of enlightenment has just plowed me over and flooded my experience. the irony is that i have come to see that i can't see! just thinking on the irony by itself is enough to send me over the edge...fortunately, Allah gave me a good sense of humor which prevents that. and at this point, after putting myself through a virtual mental/spiritual boot camp the last 2 weeks over all of this, i'm not only struggling for real, i'm also almost laughing throughout this email...my conclusion is that it must be Allah's salvation and mercy to me!
earlier in the halaqa, i was able to clarify for myself (through what you said) that Absolute, by it's very definition, IS and can only be ONE. why? because Absolute is necessarily indivisible by definition..period! so i got the Absolute part of the conclusion, i don't have any problem with Absolute. but i'm missing the rest about: GOD MUST BE Absolute. WHY MUST GOD BE Absolute? because....because.......???? i don't know why!!!!! i've confirmed only what Absolute means, i failed to confirm why God must be Absolute! i'm shocked at myself....even worse is i dont know why i can't confirm this, it's just that i can't seem to on my own.
i know i believe in One God, so i'm not freaking out due to a sudden uncertainty of One God or not, i still "believe" there is only One God as i've always believed..it's all i've ever known. i'm disturbed near meltdown because NOW i don't know how or why i came to that conclusion of my belief..so i'm wonder silently, "well, how can i believe it if i can't confirm it? so does that mean i DON'T really believe in One God????" and yeah, that's meltdown for me! i can't say why i believe that, i don't know why....and the reason i don't know is because i never used any reason to come to that belief! so NOW i'm suddenly experiencing the meaning and importance of what this reasoning method TRULY IS and WHY i need it regarding my beliefs! i guess this is the "aha moment" where i've suddenly integrated the understanding of this methodology in my head into my total being such that when i applied this wisdom to myself, i found my mistakes....namely, that i have pathetically WEAK faith. I DON'T WANT WEAK FAITH, i want out of this weak and false junk ASAP, i want REAL faith, GENUINE, TRUE BELIEF! i need to FINISH the process and figure out HOW through reasoning with the proper methodology TO CONFIRM that there is only ONE God TO MYSELF. i'm experiencing that my belief is NOT based on proper reasoning, rather i've obviously imitated my belief from the past probably because i was told there's only One God when i was little, so i just believed it.
actually, with respect to my belief before now, i never had to come to ANY conclusion because i never thought about confirming One God, so i never saw the need to reason through anything before being introduced to this methodology....i just took it for granted (meaning i assumed which uses no reasoning whatsoever) there's one God. this "imitating a belief" completely sidesteps the very necessary reasoning process altogether. UGGHHH!!!! it's all coming clear to me now.
WHY is there only one God, how do i confirm one and not many? i can't answer that by saying, "well, there's only One God because He's Absolute"..or.."He's Absolute because He's the only One God"...that's circular reasoning/arguing. someone of polytheism ideology holds..."there's more than one god, and they're all absolute in their powers"..or.."there's more than one god because in my experiences, when i pray to the different gods i get answers from each of them". so in response to my hypothetical situation as i tested myself to prove to myself there is only One God, i sickeningly failed my test in the worst possible way because i can't see how to PROVE to MYSELF that God is ONE (i.e. Absolute) and not more than one! i only proved my belief that He is has been imitation all my life without realizing it until now (which also confirms that i've just been created anew..again!) if i can confirm my conclusion to MYSELF...BY WAY OF THIS METHODOLOGY...THEN AND ONLY THEN can i say my belief is true, sound, solid, genuine and my IMAN is strong!
in my panic to explain this and see through my own blindness, i went back to find one of your earlier emails. your reasoning about why God must be Absolute is:
" "La ilahe", then, the qualities apparent on the effect necessitates the existence of a Source which must of necessity for our reason be Absolute. This is "Illallah." "
"Why absolute? It is because of "continuous creation", equality of numbers, complexity, quality, beauty... before the Source. Only for the Absolute there is no difference between different numbers, different qualities, complexity or simplicity etc"
you know what? i'm still trying to digest what this means...i never understood and never asked for clarification earlier on this because oh nooooooo, stubborn me, i just HAD to "think" about this specific thing to challenge myself. now i regret not asking earlier, i wouldn't be struggling at all about this if i'd asked. this is the VERY THING i needed to understand MOST! now i realize it and i am feeling it! well, it cost me a bundle, but serves me right, that'll teach me not to be so stubborn, inshallah! would you mind going over these two statements again, particularly the second one? what do you mean? why can't there be more than One God when it comes to continuous creation? the rest of that sentence escapes me completely, what do you mean in your words?? can you expand your reasoning more on this? i need a baby abc's level explanation...i dont' get this yet.
and how funny is this, of all people during today's halaqa, it was ME who got stumped having to ask and carry on about: what's this "many individuals" stuff that Said Nursi says we are. and guess what? here it is ME who's now acutely aware and experiencing this very thing not even 8 hours later! hahaha. if that's not tevafuk in action, what is? i'm definitely not the same, clearly i've been created anew! my new personality, until Allah decides otherwise, is: QUEEN of "How Do I Confirm This" Land. i'm a master at this question now! i can just see it already, i'll be asking myself and everybody else this from now on. i wonder if other students who embark on the path of enlightenment really know what they're getting themselves into, hahaha. i wonder if they too experience a transient insanity every now and then as they witness their old selves being blasted asunder like tidal waves busting through their minds, clearing out the debris to pave the way for new light...or if it's just me...hahaha. it's a rhetorical question, no need to confirm it's me! :))
ultimately, all joking aside...the light that's really dawned for me tonight showed me where my weakness is...namely that i need to use the discussed reasoning method to confirm. otherwise i'm stuck with empty, meaningless, false beliefs. i knew this before, or so i thought i did...but tonight i really felt it. i was able to apply and thus experience where and why it's affecting my life with respect to my beliefs..that's the real enlightenment which wasn't this clear before. that's a plus! now i just need to work on how to do that. so returning back to ponder that....HOW....i.e. what specific information of my experiences of creation do i use to reason in order to confirm ONE God....
Julie
Monday, April 26, 2010
Discussions on TIME- 7 (Comments)
SA dearest Brother Ali,
i don't want to leave you waiting or wondering why i've been silent lately. please know i'm thinking very deeply about your last email (the attached reflections on my reflections), plus this email too. this discussion of TIME and all of what you say is enormously important to me. i'm purposely waiting longer before i give further comments for several reasons. since we began discussing TIME, i've noticed my own process unfolding as i open more, not in big ways, just very small, but in ways that i feel are nonetheless significant. i've come to have a much greater and deeper appreciation for our subject of TIME.
not only that, but several days ago when i first read in your attached reflections that you've been thinking about TIME for decades, that gave me an instant and profound experience (yes, an actual experience as opposed to just thoughts in my head) of empathy about what that statement really meant....as if i somehow instantly experienced a temporary glimpse of something far greater, maybe like a totality, as yet unidentifiable for me, but which was maybe similar to your purpose for discussing TIME as well as why you've spent decades thinking about it. i hope this last sentence isn't too confusing, inshallah!!!
all that you've said since we first began discussing TIME is really so very very important. i have great respect and honor for the tremendous, careful attention you've given over decades regarding TIME. i also have an understanding of at least most of my limits and abilities. it is exactly for all the reasons stated above that i feel if i don't sit with your last two emails longer, give them careful thought and attention, watch my process with them awhile longer...i'll be doing a huge disservice to our entire discussion on TIME, the things you've said in your attached reflections, plus this new email of today. what you've written deserves the utmost care and attention on my part..precisely for the sake of why we're discussing it as you state below!
"We are not really talking about TIME per se. We are trying to understand what we are observing right now"
i just have a very strong "gut" feeling/intuition that i'm defeating myself somehow if i don't take more time with your writings. any sooner comments/reflections out of me feel rudimentary, crude, and horribly disrespectful to what we're trying to understand. i hope you don't mind if i take several days longer. our discussion on TIME...it's unfolding for me more, little by little, though not necessarily clearly when i want. i'm witnessing myself through all of this, not certain if i'm on the right track or if so for how long, but hopefully i'm seeing more truth, inshallah!!!
i sense so many things in what you say, i just struggle sorting it all out for myself always wanting a more clear understanding in this ever convoluted concept of TIME with respect to trying to understand about what we're observing right now so that we may be in the presence of our Creator. perhaps in a few days, i'll have a more solidified meaningful reply for you, inshallah.
julie
i don't want to leave you waiting or wondering why i've been silent lately. please know i'm thinking very deeply about your last email (the attached reflections on my reflections), plus this email too. this discussion of TIME and all of what you say is enormously important to me. i'm purposely waiting longer before i give further comments for several reasons. since we began discussing TIME, i've noticed my own process unfolding as i open more, not in big ways, just very small, but in ways that i feel are nonetheless significant. i've come to have a much greater and deeper appreciation for our subject of TIME.
not only that, but several days ago when i first read in your attached reflections that you've been thinking about TIME for decades, that gave me an instant and profound experience (yes, an actual experience as opposed to just thoughts in my head) of empathy about what that statement really meant....as if i somehow instantly experienced a temporary glimpse of something far greater, maybe like a totality, as yet unidentifiable for me, but which was maybe similar to your purpose for discussing TIME as well as why you've spent decades thinking about it. i hope this last sentence isn't too confusing, inshallah!!!
all that you've said since we first began discussing TIME is really so very very important. i have great respect and honor for the tremendous, careful attention you've given over decades regarding TIME. i also have an understanding of at least most of my limits and abilities. it is exactly for all the reasons stated above that i feel if i don't sit with your last two emails longer, give them careful thought and attention, watch my process with them awhile longer...i'll be doing a huge disservice to our entire discussion on TIME, the things you've said in your attached reflections, plus this new email of today. what you've written deserves the utmost care and attention on my part..precisely for the sake of why we're discussing it as you state below!
"We are not really talking about TIME per se. We are trying to understand what we are observing right now"
i just have a very strong "gut" feeling/intuition that i'm defeating myself somehow if i don't take more time with your writings. any sooner comments/reflections out of me feel rudimentary, crude, and horribly disrespectful to what we're trying to understand. i hope you don't mind if i take several days longer. our discussion on TIME...it's unfolding for me more, little by little, though not necessarily clearly when i want. i'm witnessing myself through all of this, not certain if i'm on the right track or if so for how long, but hopefully i'm seeing more truth, inshallah!!!
i sense so many things in what you say, i just struggle sorting it all out for myself always wanting a more clear understanding in this ever convoluted concept of TIME with respect to trying to understand about what we're observing right now so that we may be in the presence of our Creator. perhaps in a few days, i'll have a more solidified meaningful reply for you, inshallah.
julie
Discussions on TIME-6 (Response)
Assalamu alaikum, Sister Julie.
Thank you very much for this inspiring and sincere mail. I am learning a lot from your experiences, responses and questions.
Now, i go over the points you have made and write my comments on them.
"if someone were to ask, "how can i learn about my Creator?" i imagine your exquisite answer may be something like, "go and read the Words of your Creator in the Quran which has been brought to you and to me and to all of us by God's Holy Messenger. always think deeply and carefully about what God and His Messenger are telling you and what the Words mean, and you will come to understand more about the truth of your Creator!"
I would NOT say this only, i would say exactly what you said at the end of the paragraph. That is why we are talking about how to observe the creation. Our subject, TIME, is important for an appropriate observation of creation.
Creation is the SPEECH of the Creator by ACTION, and the revelation is the SPEECH of the same Creator by WORD. They are expected to compliment each other as well as interpret each other.
it's like the difference between learning from textbooks in the classroom vs learning by doing in the field. now, this is my opportunity to integrate another way of wisdom of God which is utterly foreign upon initial encounter yet also truly awesome ...i'm so fascinated as i continue to ponder how wonderfully both ways compliment each other."
i'm a bit lost once i think of anything other than the present. and how are we to forget things when Allah created us with memory? what is the puporse of memory then?
We are not really talking about TIME per se. We are trying to understand what we are observing right now. If we have an understanding of TIME as an independent existence, then we would not be able to make a right observation of existence.
The conclusion of the article is this: Time is our conception, there is only act of creating, bringing things into existence, is taking place. If we had given an independent existence to time, then we may, most probably, miss the ever repeating new coming into existence of the things. So, we will miss the opportunity to see the truth and thus to live ever in the presence of the Creator.
As to your question: We are created every moment as we are, i.e. with our memory as well. The purpose of this study is not suggesting to think of the present; it is suggesting to observe the ever renewing act of creation. When we observe the creation we should make a new "witnessing" (shahada) as the manifestation of the attributes of the Creator renews themselves. We should never try to change the situation we are created with (not to try to forget the past - we are now being created with it); rather, we should RESPOND the creation anew as it is demonstrating itself anew. We should not say, "The God Whose manifestation i observed yesterday is now again manifesting His quality again." That would be a repetition. Since the manifestation is not a repetition, our response to it should not be repetitive. EVERY MANIFESTATION IS ANOTHER DEMONSTRATION OF THE ABSOLUTE QUALITIES.
Thus i conclude there is wisdom in the creation of the elephant otherwise "Allah would not have created it". that seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me. if we conclude All-Wise must be an absolute attribute of God, then how is it speculation to conclude God is not going to do something UNwise?
Put it simply: The elephant i observed yesterday and as a result of my observation i concluded that, "This elephant cannot come into existence by itself (naturally) or as a result of coincidence; it must be the result of an creative action of an Absolute Creator Who, at the same time, must be Absolutely Wise. Now, today i am observing an elephant which looks like the one i saw yesterday, not exactly the same, a new act of creation. Since it is a new act of creation, my response to it must also be a new response. Although i remember my yesterday's conclusion, still i am exposed another act of creation and i am seeing it, i am reflecting on it with the abilities given to me anew, today. Why should i not let the purpose of creation be fulfilled by making another "WITNESSING" (shahada) to the new creation. If i do not do that, just use my "memory of yesterday", what is the purpose in the creative act that i am made to observe today? I would ask myself: Is the Creator of this world repeating Himself, and repeating Himself for no purpose? No one can say this. Every time i get hungry is another demonstration of the need and the fulfillment of the need etc. Another demonstration that the One Who fulfills my need is ever taking care of me. I am experiencing this through my hunger and food.
If we take this position toward the ever-renewing act of creation we will be ever in the presence of God, and we will be always consciously thanking God, only. If this is not the case, there is a probability of forgetting the source of the creation and start talking about the price of the food we bought, or, about the country from where it has been imported, or, which company has distributed it etc etc. God will be just a figure, at best, at the beginning "to be mentioned only" in a ritualistic form.
That is why i kept saying, we should not speak from God's sphere such as God is not going to do something UNwise."
I would say, "How do you know?
The answer would be: "I concluded from my observation yesterday.
But it was yesterday's conclusion, and it was like this: "The One Who created this elephant must be All-Wise" That is fine. Today, we are not expected to carry this conclusion and turned it into a decision about God. Look at the sentence: "God is not going to do something UNwise"
I would say: "We should not decide about God, let Him demonstrate Himself if He is going to be or not to be UNwise. We are NOT God's advocates."
As we observe the creation and the way He creates we do not expect God to be unwise, but to say this is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to observe what He is manifesting, and respond to it: Make witnessing. The One who created this elephant must be God and my conclusion is that The Creator God is Absolutely Wise because i am observing the existence of the elephant. If i have experienced it yesterday, i would say, i experienced it yesterday. And i am experiencing it today as well. My yesterday's and today's conclusions are the same.
I hope this explanation makes the case clear. We are worshipers, God is the Worshiped One. Worshipers respond to God, they do not try to imitate God, and do not speak on His behalf. He speaks for himself; He is capable of this :) He says, "I am All-Powerful, I can Create anything I like." We look at what He does and respond to this statement and say: "Yeah, what You are saying is really, true, AS A RESULT OF MY OBSERVATION OF THE THINGS I AM CERTAIN THAT THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE MUST BE ALL-POWERFULL. THEREFORE , I CONFIRM THIS STATEMENT THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.
THAT IS WITNESSING THAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO RENEW EVERY MOMENT. AT THE END, IT MAY BECOME, inshaAllah, A REFLEX, A SPONTANEOUS HABIT (in Arabic, "hads") FOR US.
Still, then, we should never ignore the witnessing process in our lives. The companios of the Prophet who were given the good tidings of the Paradise while they were on earth, never neglected their study of the Qur'an and reflections on the verses of the Qur'an. They were even more concerned with the new revelations. They never ignored their confirmation of the Truth in their later lives.
1. are we ever not in Allah's presence? or is it that we need to confirm we are through this method of reasoning.
Yes, we do need to confirm we are in the presence of our Creator, God.
Of course, if we are created and being continuously created, then, the Creator is always with us. Again, this is the sphere of the act of creation which looks to the Creator. We are to be concerned with our own choice, not with God's. Are we in the presence of God? Are we aware that it is the case? Are we conscious of the fact that we are always in the presence of our Creator?
While we are having our dinner, or, breathing the air; the food and the air are created and offered to us. The Creator is there. Are we conscious of His Presence in our dinner and in the molecules of air we are breathing. That is our responsibility. Again, this universe has a Creator, whether we accept it or not. But this does not qualify us with experiencing the pleasure of living in the presence of God, the Eternally Merciful One, the Provider of our needs etc. That is the start of experiencing the eternal happiness of Paradise which is integrated into the BELIEF IN THE ABSOLUTE CREATOR while we are on earth. That is the most exiting reality in my life!
Otherwise, we would keep talking about how wonderful the food was or the chef was, the prices are going up or down, economy etc. The clean air, fresh air, thanks to the NATURAL GAS, BUTANE GAS, CHEAP GAS, EXPENSIVE GAS ETC.
2. "in Allah's presence"......so where is Allah?
You made me lough with this question, of course, out of sympathy. If we believed that this universe has a Creator, then, the question where is God would be redundant. No one can ask where the Creator of space and time (as we experience here), if we are aware of what we are talking about. We are talking about the Creator of space and time, the universe. We are not talking about a piece of the universe :))
in a nutshell this email contains these fundamental lessons:
In principle, i would say mashaAllah, you have summarized it beautifully. Why in principle? Now, we all need exercises how to make these lessons real in our lives. That is what i understood from the first paragraphs of your email : Turn them into WISDOM. Make them a part of our humanity. That is another process: Using our human qualities as units of measurement in order to experience the belief in God through our human senses.
so even though the book is not the author and the created things are not the Creator, the attributes they reflect are Absolute and eternal because they reflect the Creator who is Absolute and eternal.
Again, a very minute but crucial point: "... the Creator who is Absolute and Eternal." I would be careful to use this expression. I would rather think in this way: The things bear witness through the qualities manifested on them that these qualities require a Source which must of necessity be Absolute. If we, human beings, imagine that these qualities might have come from a source which is not absolute, human senses (reason, heart - the representative of senses, emotions etc) would not be satisfied. So, the sentence need a little bit modification and then we need to construct our way of reasoning accordingly. "...the Creator Who MUST OF NECESSITY BE ABSOLUTE AND ETERNAL." Why is this modification important? Only concluding from our sphere is our responsibility: To confirm what we observe; not to repeat our previous experiences.
I will repeat for the sake of clarification: God Himself may say that, "I am Absolute and Eternal." Ours is to confirm it by evidences taken from His manifestations in the created universe, and then say, "Yes, He MUST be Absolute and Eternal, otherwise, i cannot make sense of explaining the existence of this universe." When we read the Revelation (The Qur'an, for instance) we may respond to the Revelation, only if we are satisfied with the evidences here on earth, 'Yes, what the revelation is saying MUST be correct. In order to be the Creator, He MUST be Absolute."
PS. There is a wonderful study on this topic by Said Nursi in his book called The Rays (The Second Ray which is on Tawhid).
That is our conclusion after observation of the existence, and that conclusion is BELIEF. Without our own conclusion at every moment we cannot be a believer at every moment. That summarizes the importance of studying TIME. It was expected from the article that it will bring this witnessing in every instant we experience in our life, God willing.
Thank you very much for your painstaking consistency in assimilating the topic into your real life. This made me happy and exited. I say, al-hamdulillah, there are still people who take the serious matters seriously.
Please, do not hesitate to pick up the points which does not seem to be sound. Forward them to me, i really find challenging encounters teaching and educating for me.
I look forward to hearing your insightful comments.
Thank you very much for your time and good intention in your afford to find the Straight Path.
May God lead us to it.
Your br. ali
Thank you very much for this inspiring and sincere mail. I am learning a lot from your experiences, responses and questions.
Now, i go over the points you have made and write my comments on them.
"if someone were to ask, "how can i learn about my Creator?" i imagine your exquisite answer may be something like, "go and read the Words of your Creator in the Quran which has been brought to you and to me and to all of us by God's Holy Messenger. always think deeply and carefully about what God and His Messenger are telling you and what the Words mean, and you will come to understand more about the truth of your Creator!"
I would NOT say this only, i would say exactly what you said at the end of the paragraph. That is why we are talking about how to observe the creation. Our subject, TIME, is important for an appropriate observation of creation.
Creation is the SPEECH of the Creator by ACTION, and the revelation is the SPEECH of the same Creator by WORD. They are expected to compliment each other as well as interpret each other.
it's like the difference between learning from textbooks in the classroom vs learning by doing in the field. now, this is my opportunity to integrate another way of wisdom of God which is utterly foreign upon initial encounter yet also truly awesome ...i'm so fascinated as i continue to ponder how wonderfully both ways compliment each other."
i'm a bit lost once i think of anything other than the present. and how are we to forget things when Allah created us with memory? what is the puporse of memory then?
We are not really talking about TIME per se. We are trying to understand what we are observing right now. If we have an understanding of TIME as an independent existence, then we would not be able to make a right observation of existence.
The conclusion of the article is this: Time is our conception, there is only act of creating, bringing things into existence, is taking place. If we had given an independent existence to time, then we may, most probably, miss the ever repeating new coming into existence of the things. So, we will miss the opportunity to see the truth and thus to live ever in the presence of the Creator.
As to your question: We are created every moment as we are, i.e. with our memory as well. The purpose of this study is not suggesting to think of the present; it is suggesting to observe the ever renewing act of creation. When we observe the creation we should make a new "witnessing" (shahada) as the manifestation of the attributes of the Creator renews themselves. We should never try to change the situation we are created with (not to try to forget the past - we are now being created with it); rather, we should RESPOND the creation anew as it is demonstrating itself anew. We should not say, "The God Whose manifestation i observed yesterday is now again manifesting His quality again." That would be a repetition. Since the manifestation is not a repetition, our response to it should not be repetitive. EVERY MANIFESTATION IS ANOTHER DEMONSTRATION OF THE ABSOLUTE QUALITIES.
Thus i conclude there is wisdom in the creation of the elephant otherwise "Allah would not have created it". that seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me. if we conclude All-Wise must be an absolute attribute of God, then how is it speculation to conclude God is not going to do something UNwise?
Put it simply: The elephant i observed yesterday and as a result of my observation i concluded that, "This elephant cannot come into existence by itself (naturally) or as a result of coincidence; it must be the result of an creative action of an Absolute Creator Who, at the same time, must be Absolutely Wise. Now, today i am observing an elephant which looks like the one i saw yesterday, not exactly the same, a new act of creation. Since it is a new act of creation, my response to it must also be a new response. Although i remember my yesterday's conclusion, still i am exposed another act of creation and i am seeing it, i am reflecting on it with the abilities given to me anew, today. Why should i not let the purpose of creation be fulfilled by making another "WITNESSING" (shahada) to the new creation. If i do not do that, just use my "memory of yesterday", what is the purpose in the creative act that i am made to observe today? I would ask myself: Is the Creator of this world repeating Himself, and repeating Himself for no purpose? No one can say this. Every time i get hungry is another demonstration of the need and the fulfillment of the need etc. Another demonstration that the One Who fulfills my need is ever taking care of me. I am experiencing this through my hunger and food.
If we take this position toward the ever-renewing act of creation we will be ever in the presence of God, and we will be always consciously thanking God, only. If this is not the case, there is a probability of forgetting the source of the creation and start talking about the price of the food we bought, or, about the country from where it has been imported, or, which company has distributed it etc etc. God will be just a figure, at best, at the beginning "to be mentioned only" in a ritualistic form.
That is why i kept saying, we should not speak from God's sphere such as God is not going to do something UNwise."
I would say, "How do you know?
The answer would be: "I concluded from my observation yesterday.
But it was yesterday's conclusion, and it was like this: "The One Who created this elephant must be All-Wise" That is fine. Today, we are not expected to carry this conclusion and turned it into a decision about God. Look at the sentence: "God is not going to do something UNwise"
I would say: "We should not decide about God, let Him demonstrate Himself if He is going to be or not to be UNwise. We are NOT God's advocates."
As we observe the creation and the way He creates we do not expect God to be unwise, but to say this is not our responsibility. Our responsibility is to observe what He is manifesting, and respond to it: Make witnessing. The One who created this elephant must be God and my conclusion is that The Creator God is Absolutely Wise because i am observing the existence of the elephant. If i have experienced it yesterday, i would say, i experienced it yesterday. And i am experiencing it today as well. My yesterday's and today's conclusions are the same.
I hope this explanation makes the case clear. We are worshipers, God is the Worshiped One. Worshipers respond to God, they do not try to imitate God, and do not speak on His behalf. He speaks for himself; He is capable of this :) He says, "I am All-Powerful, I can Create anything I like." We look at what He does and respond to this statement and say: "Yeah, what You are saying is really, true, AS A RESULT OF MY OBSERVATION OF THE THINGS I AM CERTAIN THAT THE CREATOR OF THIS UNIVERSE MUST BE ALL-POWERFULL. THEREFORE , I CONFIRM THIS STATEMENT THAT IT IS THE WORD OF GOD, THE CREATOR OF THE UNIVERSE.
THAT IS WITNESSING THAT WE ARE EXPECTED TO RENEW EVERY MOMENT. AT THE END, IT MAY BECOME, inshaAllah, A REFLEX, A SPONTANEOUS HABIT (in Arabic, "hads") FOR US.
Still, then, we should never ignore the witnessing process in our lives. The companios of the Prophet who were given the good tidings of the Paradise while they were on earth, never neglected their study of the Qur'an and reflections on the verses of the Qur'an. They were even more concerned with the new revelations. They never ignored their confirmation of the Truth in their later lives.
1. are we ever not in Allah's presence? or is it that we need to confirm we are through this method of reasoning.
Yes, we do need to confirm we are in the presence of our Creator, God.
Of course, if we are created and being continuously created, then, the Creator is always with us. Again, this is the sphere of the act of creation which looks to the Creator. We are to be concerned with our own choice, not with God's. Are we in the presence of God? Are we aware that it is the case? Are we conscious of the fact that we are always in the presence of our Creator?
While we are having our dinner, or, breathing the air; the food and the air are created and offered to us. The Creator is there. Are we conscious of His Presence in our dinner and in the molecules of air we are breathing. That is our responsibility. Again, this universe has a Creator, whether we accept it or not. But this does not qualify us with experiencing the pleasure of living in the presence of God, the Eternally Merciful One, the Provider of our needs etc. That is the start of experiencing the eternal happiness of Paradise which is integrated into the BELIEF IN THE ABSOLUTE CREATOR while we are on earth. That is the most exiting reality in my life!
Otherwise, we would keep talking about how wonderful the food was or the chef was, the prices are going up or down, economy etc. The clean air, fresh air, thanks to the NATURAL GAS, BUTANE GAS, CHEAP GAS, EXPENSIVE GAS ETC.
2. "in Allah's presence"......so where is Allah?
You made me lough with this question, of course, out of sympathy. If we believed that this universe has a Creator, then, the question where is God would be redundant. No one can ask where the Creator of space and time (as we experience here), if we are aware of what we are talking about. We are talking about the Creator of space and time, the universe. We are not talking about a piece of the universe :))
in a nutshell this email contains these fundamental lessons:
In principle, i would say mashaAllah, you have summarized it beautifully. Why in principle? Now, we all need exercises how to make these lessons real in our lives. That is what i understood from the first paragraphs of your email : Turn them into WISDOM. Make them a part of our humanity. That is another process: Using our human qualities as units of measurement in order to experience the belief in God through our human senses.
so even though the book is not the author and the created things are not the Creator, the attributes they reflect are Absolute and eternal because they reflect the Creator who is Absolute and eternal.
Again, a very minute but crucial point: "... the Creator who is Absolute and Eternal." I would be careful to use this expression. I would rather think in this way: The things bear witness through the qualities manifested on them that these qualities require a Source which must of necessity be Absolute. If we, human beings, imagine that these qualities might have come from a source which is not absolute, human senses (reason, heart - the representative of senses, emotions etc) would not be satisfied. So, the sentence need a little bit modification and then we need to construct our way of reasoning accordingly. "...the Creator Who MUST OF NECESSITY BE ABSOLUTE AND ETERNAL." Why is this modification important? Only concluding from our sphere is our responsibility: To confirm what we observe; not to repeat our previous experiences.
I will repeat for the sake of clarification: God Himself may say that, "I am Absolute and Eternal." Ours is to confirm it by evidences taken from His manifestations in the created universe, and then say, "Yes, He MUST be Absolute and Eternal, otherwise, i cannot make sense of explaining the existence of this universe." When we read the Revelation (The Qur'an, for instance) we may respond to the Revelation, only if we are satisfied with the evidences here on earth, 'Yes, what the revelation is saying MUST be correct. In order to be the Creator, He MUST be Absolute."
PS. There is a wonderful study on this topic by Said Nursi in his book called The Rays (The Second Ray which is on Tawhid).
That is our conclusion after observation of the existence, and that conclusion is BELIEF. Without our own conclusion at every moment we cannot be a believer at every moment. That summarizes the importance of studying TIME. It was expected from the article that it will bring this witnessing in every instant we experience in our life, God willing.
Thank you very much for your painstaking consistency in assimilating the topic into your real life. This made me happy and exited. I say, al-hamdulillah, there are still people who take the serious matters seriously.
Please, do not hesitate to pick up the points which does not seem to be sound. Forward them to me, i really find challenging encounters teaching and educating for me.
I look forward to hearing your insightful comments.
Thank you very much for your time and good intention in your afford to find the Straight Path.
May God lead us to it.
Your br. ali
Discussions on TIME- 5 (Comments)
walaikum salam Brother Ali,
real quick...i know i have a new email from you with an attachment of your reflections on my reflections on TIME...but let me remind you before we get mixed up in a time delay from the days in between reading/responding/sending emails...remember i wrote my intitial comments in that attachment days ago which you are just now responding to tonight. so i was in a less enlightened state then than i am now, my eyes are opening more and more each day, so my comments in that attachment may reflect a lack of vision which has since improved, inshallah!!! either way, if any of your criticism ends up being a review for me because i've since improved on that specific thing, then the review too is a good way to help me learn!!!!
the email you sent last night, for me, holds lessons of great importance unlike any other email i've received so far. it is difficult to grasp in many ways, but i'm working so very hard on it. from this email, i understand more about the method of reasoning, it's a bit more clear to me now than it was before. you've talked about the need to confirm what we interpret mulitple times, but exactly how to do that, namely via this particular method of reasoning, is what became more clear. however, it isn't 100% clear yet is because i'm not as familiar with Said Nursi's methodology of reasoning as much as you...i'm too embarrassed to give a % of how clear it is for me, i only hope and pray you'll have patience as i open my eyes more and more to it, inshallah.
i want to say something in general, seemingly unrelated, but not unrelated at all that i think is important. in my small opinion, the highest knowledge of truth obtainable only remains as intellectual concepts in our heads to mull over until we are able to fully integrate the knowledge into the rest of our humanity and experience it in our being. then and only then when we integrate it into the rest of our being does the knowledge become wisdom. knowledge is acquired, wisdom is the application of that acquired knowledge. i dont want to just think about the things you present, i want to also be able to apply all of it....the application is where i often get stuck, i need practice.
on one hand, i feel far too ignorant to even try to comment since i am too new to the Quran and Said Nursi, so new that in my ignorance, i will inevitably fail in any attempt to speak about the Holy Wisdom contained in either miraculous holy work...as evidenced in your comments on my emails. on the other hand, i feel especially blessed because i come to the wisdom of the Quran and Said Nursi with an almost childlike wonder, innocence and open mind, precisely because i was not born muslim. therefore, i don't need to struggle to unlearn an islamic way of reasoning and relearn another. i only need to learn from my fresh start. yes, this learning is so unusually different and i too have my own indoctrinated, habitual thinking to replace with this new way of wisdom. but intuitively, i feel learning this exceptional wisdom properly i.e. through the right method of reasoning, is indeed a very rare and miraculous treasure of holiness. i thank Allah for guiding me to this particular extraordinary wisdom so early in my discovery of islam.
i find it very interesting that i grew up in a christian family, but virtually without religion. i had no book, no written Word of God for humans for me to read or learn to reason about. i completely dumped christianity anyway at age 7. i refused to participate in the hypocrisy and idolotry i witnessed in the people, at age 7 things just didn't feel right about it. i respected the pure teachings of Jesus (pbuh), but any notion about praying to a plastic figurine of Jesus (pbuh) glued to two perpendicular sticks was ludicrous and obvious absurdity to me. i wanted only to discover the real truth about God, so i headed straight outside into the woods to be with nature and animals...to be in direct contact with what God created. i saw no greater or better way to feel close to God than to experience His pure creation. from sunrise past sunset i was out in nature, i practically lived in nature. thankfully, Allah created me with a very deep love for His nature and animals...a reality of bountiful experiences of God's sacred treasures. it's an entirely different way of learning than conventional school. i didn't read books about God, i read trees, mud, rocks, streams, animals, rain, fur, bluffs, wind, grass, logs, ice, snow, flowers, tracks, storms, feathers, the connections i observed between things, the harmony, the changes, the macro and micro, the behaviors of all, the way things related to me and me to them, etc...an infinite, natural library all about about one subject...God.
if someone were to ask, "how can i learn about my Creator?" i imagine your exquisite answer may be something like, "go and read the Words of your Creator in the Quran which has been brought to you and to me and to all of us by God's Holy Messenger. always think deeply and carefully about what God and His Messenger are telling you and what the Words mean, and you will come to understand more about the truth of your Creator!" but my answer (before i had the Quran), "go and be in God's nature with God's animals, they are most pure. interact with His creation, know the animals, experience creation and you will discover more about the truth of your Creator." it's like the difference between learning from textbooks in the classroom vs learning by doing in the field. now, this is my opportunity to integrate another way of wisdom of God which is utterly foreign upon initial encounter yet also truly awesome ...i'm so fascinated as i continue to ponder how wonderfully both ways compliment each other.
i've spent night and day changing this reply, i'm working hard on the lessons i see. i see this particular method of reasoning as the starting point from which all belief, all discussions, all understanding of our Creator and creation must necessarily begin and continue to follow. anything else will cause me to fall into a false sense of faith and incorrect understanding. the more i think, the more i realize i need to have a better grasp on all of this, yet i must include some comments in hopes they expose my weaknesses...how else can i improve if i don't expose what i need to work on? allow me to also reiterate in my own words to see how much i'm understanding what you say which is so crucial and fundamental.
essentially, you have most appropriately described and set a standard of excellence in discerning what we say and believe about our Creator and creation by utilizing this particular method of reasoning. more specifically, you explain:
1. the need to understand where our reasoning is coming from at all times in our understanding of our experiences and reasoning with respect to the existence of Creator and creation. our latest discussions involving how our understanding of Creator and creation relate to "time".
you introduce two spheres and the necessity to make distinction between them. this is new!!! one sphere is the perspective of Creator - God's sphere (relative to one's understanding). a sphere of concluding that Creator must be (i.e. the right language) Absolute where Reality is One and necessarliy can only be One, indivisible, boundless of time/space or anything else...a sphere from which we have no right to speak on behalf of God as if an advocate...outside of prayer, that is. the other sphere is the perspective from creation - our sphere (relative to our understanding). where reality is subjective, relative to one's understanding and thus multiple, not one....a sphere where we apply this method of reasoning to our experiences in the present
2. you further explain why we always need to be aware of where we are in our perspective, i.e. which sphere our reasoning comes from, in talking about Creator and creation. why? simply put, to avoid imitating.
if by some small miracle i've correctly reiterated what you are saying, you think, "ok good, she understands and gets it"...think again, because i don't feel at all comfortable in my ability to recognize the full meaning, qualities and language of either yet.
"We usually confuse the spheres in our reasoning. Reason works only within the sphere of causes. Reason only concludes about the result of our experience. That is called 'Belief", "IMAN". If the conclusion is about something beyond our "experience", then, we cannot bring this conclusion into our reasoning back and base our further reasoning on it. This is a very crucial point."
i see that it is very very crucial to distinguish which sphere our reasoning is coming from, but this method of reasoning is new and foreign to me so i need much more practice and i need to learn and recognize which sphere is which so that i can differentiate between the two to ensure and improve true belief/iman and avoid imitating. please feel free anywhere at any time to ask me, "julie, which sphere is my or your reasoning from here?" as you did in your email about Faith. forcing me to think will help me learn how to recognize these spheres more clearly. please push me hard on this if you don't mind. for example: ask me things like, "where is your awareness lacking, think!...or...why is this God's sphere and not creation sphere...or...what else can you say about such and such...or...how do you confirm that...or...julie you are imitating or speculating, i want you to tell me how and where and with what language you're doing that so that you'll realize it for yourself...or...why are you saying that in this sphere and is that correct or incorrect...or....julie, your reasoning (or language) is incorrect, tell me what's wrong with it and where, how and why it's incorrect....etc." do you see what i need? i hope that gives you a better idea of where i'm weak, inshallah, because i dont understand enough to explain it further with other words. trust me, i'm not the slightest bit intimidated by your toughness because i'm more brutal on myself than you ever will be!!! this is important material!!!!!!!!
"In order to avoid imitation, we need to be aware of "TIME", i.e. continuous coming into existence, or, continuously given existence."
let me reiterate what i understand. in order to avoid imitation we need to understand time, that things are being continuously brought into existence from our perspective in this sphere of creation. applying this particular approach to reasoning is how we may conclude and confirm what we believe and this is the only way to true iman/belief. here is where there i run into some fog in my mind: "in order to avoid imitating, we need to be aware of "TIME"......because?? let me first try to answer this myself to train my thinking, i hope i don't butcher this too badly, inshallah, i want so much to understand. because........
because if i'm aware of time, i.e. my subjective perspective of my experiences and observations of creation in present in that things are continously being brought into existence "now" which prevents me from incorrectly reasoning conclusions from past beliefs or conclusions which come from anything other than (beyond) my experience. i hope i understand this correctly, it's so important, it's also something i need much practice doing to become adept at it.
what confuses me is: what about my present beliefs which 've retained...beliefs that resulted from my past experiences which are not being brought into existence because they were unique and are no longer in existence....yet at that time, i concluded through my own reasoning as a result of my experience, which you say is belief. so what do i do with those beliefs from the past? for example an experience of Allah's attribute of Beauty i remember from the past...am i to drop that belief and confirm a new belief that Beauty is an Absolute attribute of God from present experiences? or do i renew my old belief in the present. i'm a bit lost once i think of anything other than the present. and how are we to forget things when Allah created us with memory? what is the puporse of memory then?
"Only the Absolute reality exists by itself, the creatures exist because there are given existence by the Absolute Reality. Their existence points to the existence of the Absolute Reality."
it is because things cannot create themselves and cannot give themselves existence that their existence necessitates an Absolute Creator.
" "Allah would not have created it"
For the second sentence again, how we can speculate something about God? We cannot. The elephant is created, that is our reality, we are experiencing it here on earth. If there was no elephant how could i talk about it? We need to stop using this kind of language."
here's where i'm confused about the elephant. i don't see how this is "speculating something about God" perhaps because in this specific instance i do not see the distinction between the two spheres, rather i've mixed them so much that i'm not able to see the distinction. here is my reasoning as to why i don't see the elephant stuff as speculation:
we both conclude that the Creator is Absolute because nothing created creates itself nor has the ability to give itself or anything else existence, which means all things created MUST have been given their existence by something else which we call God and God MUST be Absolute because all things are continuously being brought into existence each moment. so, can we not then conclude that all attributes of God are also Absolute? and because one of God's attributes is All-Wise, can we not then conclude that there is wisdom in all created beings the All-Wise God creates? is there anything without wisdom? thus i conclude there is wisdom in the creation of the elephant otherwise "Allah would not have created it". that seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me. if we conclude All-Wise must be an absolute attribute of God, then how is it speculation to conclude God is not going to do something UNwise?
"...Do you now understand that when we say, "the future does not exist", it is a statement which is said in this sphere of creation in order to reason about the existence of the things i experience now. I do not experience the future, it does not exist FOR ME. Nothing more than this. Why do we bring into the discussion what we had concluded about before. We are reasoning now, we are expected to come to a conclusion and say that the Source of this creation MUST know what it is going to be created, because He must be Absolute..."
yes, i'm beginning to understand. i brought that future into the discussion because i had not concluded the future didn't exist, you did...and rather than follow your belief blindly like a sheep, i used my own indepent mind to "argue" (just like you, i do not mean argue for real, just discuss, albeit in a challenging way, to discover deeper understanding...not that i believed what i said) the concept of future. and at the time i'd written what you are being tough about, i had no clear understanding of these "spheres" nor the need to make a distinction between them which you've introduced in this email.
"Again, while reasoning, there is a confusion of the spheres in the last sentences of the email"
yeah, i know because clearly i need help distinguishing between them to prevent mixing them. but again, at the time i'd written "the last sentences" of my email, i'd never heard of "spheres", and at this point i'm thinking you are very frustrated with me. i'm so very sorry as well as disappointed in myself that i do not meet the expectations of correct conclusions or use the correct method of reasoning in less than 24 hours of reading your email and having this method more clearly explained for me in a way i did not see before...as well as learn about "spheres" in this email for the first time. this is why this email of yours holds vitally important lessons for me as i stated in my opening sentence. "more clearly explained" does not mean i have an expert's grasp on it..yet.
YOU are the one with eyes wide open, not me. i am not wise Brother Ali, in fact, i don't understand (though i'm greatly honored) why you would even want my thoughts regarding your article on TIME to begin with. my opinion is meaningless and nothing since i'm only a very ignorant beginner, i'm certainly not someone at your depth of understanding regarding the Quran and the Risale-i Nur. i want to be, and some day i hope to be, inshallah...but i am not there yet. what i AM is a student on a very serious quest seeking to be as close to Allah as humanly possible in my lifetime.
"We need to pray Allah to guide us to a true realization of the concept of time because it help us live in the presence of Allah always."
1. are we ever not in Allah's presence? or is it that we need to confirm we are through this method of reasoning.
2. "in Allah's presence"......so where is Allah?
"If we listen to the Hutba, (sermons) and reason accordingly, it is inevitable for us to speak from God's perspective because they usually use their previous conclusions, if not previous cultural belief, to base their reasoning. I think it is NOT reasoning it is just repetition of themselves. Mostly, claims. As "Hutba" it is fine, NOT as our reasoning while we are not in the position of Speaking to God in the form of prayer."
this describes the confusion about the spheres due to or in conjunction with an incorrect method of reasoning, i.e. this is imitating. i think the confusion comes from never having been introduced to any need to make such a distinction before, and thus the two spheres are habitually seen as one and that mixing them is all that's known, it is the "norm". this way of perceiving Creator and creation is original, unique and valuable. i need to clarify them more as i discussed already.
in a nutshell this email contains these fundamental lessons:
1. based on what i experience, using this particular and correct method of reasoning to confirm my experience to form conclusions which establishes correct iman, as opposed to imitating beliefs.
2. becoming and remaining aware of where my reasoning is coming from, which sphere am i standing in when i talk about the Creator and creation...realizing that i cannot talk on behalf of God outside of prayer.
3. regarding time, there is no boundary of time/space from the sphere of Absolute Creator, and for the sphere we're in of creation, i do not experience past or future, so they do not exist, that is my experience.
4. this in addition to recognition of which sphere my reasoning is coming from is most important: "(i realized and confirmed that)"......"That is not belief based on confirmation and certainty." i.e......learning the correct language and how to confirm with certainty via correct reasoning from my experiences of how things are existing (sphere of creation) in order to form my conclusions about the Source/Creator of those created things (God's sphere) IS fundamentally THE MOST critical thing of all. do not ease up on me until i get this THOROUGHLY, 1000%
below is an example of me testing my knowledge of the above...i'll probably ruin it as my brain is getting so fried from being too stubborn to stop until now...i think it's not specific enough or something in my reasoning is missing...anyway, below is an example self test:
example: remembering various experiences with other creatures...the Beauty and Love i've seen and felt with them...the experience itself taught me this Beauty, this Love must be the Beauty, the Love of God. well, actually, at those times i was so certain of this that i told myself, "this Beauty, this Love IS God", but now i'm learning from you in this email, i need to watch myself and be careful, i can't speak on behalf of God and say "God is ____" outside of prayer. i need to use correct language. so all i can say is "i observed/experienced this and from my experience i conclude these must be attributes of God"
i wonder how faulty my conclusions are. from the various experiences of my example, i concluded this Beauty and Love must be of God. why? because for me, the experience of something that awesome that it took my breath away in its truth, something that profoundly moving that i couldn't speak, something that miraculous, that deeply special, beautiful, precious so far above and beyond the mere physical had to mean there is a Creator of infinite and most Supreme Love, Beauty, Wisdom, Truth etc. my conclusion came from what i felt more than from me sitting there reasoning through it. that i'm even able to feel such profoundness of depth in the way that i do allows me to conclude there is a Creator of my spirit and body to be on earth, and since i'm created, so too are all things.
more test practice, although it's not that great...my brain is getting so fried from all this at this point that i'm starting to not make sense to myself, sorry, i need a break, but i can't give up when i'm almost finished and this is really so very important to me because it's the foundation upon which all else in my growth regarding this wisdom will develop so it MUST be solid yet i am weak as you'll see in this test:
Creator is the only Reality or Absolute. creation/created things reflect aspects of the Creator, just as a book is not separate from its author but the book is also not the author, only an aspect or reflection of the author. creation is never separate from its Creator. the attributes, qualities or aspects of individual creatures and all of creation necessarily reflect the Absolute Creator, how can they not since i conclude they were created by their Creator? how do i confirm this? no created thing can create itself, they can only be created by something else, their existence is dependent on something else. so even though the book is not the author and the created things are not the Creator, the attributes they reflect are Absolute and eternal because they reflect the Creator who is Absolute and eternal.
ok...i'm ending my reply now before i find something else that trips my mind up because i know i wont stop until i get it...i've worked on this email hard for 24 hours with little sleep and food because it was that important to me!!!! i still have much work to do to understand this, in time things will unfold more in my mind, inshallah...but i can say with certainty that after all my study of this email of yours, i feel MUCH BETTER now than i did when i first read it last night..yay!!! :-)
julie
real quick...i know i have a new email from you with an attachment of your reflections on my reflections on TIME...but let me remind you before we get mixed up in a time delay from the days in between reading/responding/sending emails...remember i wrote my intitial comments in that attachment days ago which you are just now responding to tonight. so i was in a less enlightened state then than i am now, my eyes are opening more and more each day, so my comments in that attachment may reflect a lack of vision which has since improved, inshallah!!! either way, if any of your criticism ends up being a review for me because i've since improved on that specific thing, then the review too is a good way to help me learn!!!!
the email you sent last night, for me, holds lessons of great importance unlike any other email i've received so far. it is difficult to grasp in many ways, but i'm working so very hard on it. from this email, i understand more about the method of reasoning, it's a bit more clear to me now than it was before. you've talked about the need to confirm what we interpret mulitple times, but exactly how to do that, namely via this particular method of reasoning, is what became more clear. however, it isn't 100% clear yet is because i'm not as familiar with Said Nursi's methodology of reasoning as much as you...i'm too embarrassed to give a % of how clear it is for me, i only hope and pray you'll have patience as i open my eyes more and more to it, inshallah.
i want to say something in general, seemingly unrelated, but not unrelated at all that i think is important. in my small opinion, the highest knowledge of truth obtainable only remains as intellectual concepts in our heads to mull over until we are able to fully integrate the knowledge into the rest of our humanity and experience it in our being. then and only then when we integrate it into the rest of our being does the knowledge become wisdom. knowledge is acquired, wisdom is the application of that acquired knowledge. i dont want to just think about the things you present, i want to also be able to apply all of it....the application is where i often get stuck, i need practice.
on one hand, i feel far too ignorant to even try to comment since i am too new to the Quran and Said Nursi, so new that in my ignorance, i will inevitably fail in any attempt to speak about the Holy Wisdom contained in either miraculous holy work...as evidenced in your comments on my emails. on the other hand, i feel especially blessed because i come to the wisdom of the Quran and Said Nursi with an almost childlike wonder, innocence and open mind, precisely because i was not born muslim. therefore, i don't need to struggle to unlearn an islamic way of reasoning and relearn another. i only need to learn from my fresh start. yes, this learning is so unusually different and i too have my own indoctrinated, habitual thinking to replace with this new way of wisdom. but intuitively, i feel learning this exceptional wisdom properly i.e. through the right method of reasoning, is indeed a very rare and miraculous treasure of holiness. i thank Allah for guiding me to this particular extraordinary wisdom so early in my discovery of islam.
i find it very interesting that i grew up in a christian family, but virtually without religion. i had no book, no written Word of God for humans for me to read or learn to reason about. i completely dumped christianity anyway at age 7. i refused to participate in the hypocrisy and idolotry i witnessed in the people, at age 7 things just didn't feel right about it. i respected the pure teachings of Jesus (pbuh), but any notion about praying to a plastic figurine of Jesus (pbuh) glued to two perpendicular sticks was ludicrous and obvious absurdity to me. i wanted only to discover the real truth about God, so i headed straight outside into the woods to be with nature and animals...to be in direct contact with what God created. i saw no greater or better way to feel close to God than to experience His pure creation. from sunrise past sunset i was out in nature, i practically lived in nature. thankfully, Allah created me with a very deep love for His nature and animals...a reality of bountiful experiences of God's sacred treasures. it's an entirely different way of learning than conventional school. i didn't read books about God, i read trees, mud, rocks, streams, animals, rain, fur, bluffs, wind, grass, logs, ice, snow, flowers, tracks, storms, feathers, the connections i observed between things, the harmony, the changes, the macro and micro, the behaviors of all, the way things related to me and me to them, etc...an infinite, natural library all about about one subject...God.
if someone were to ask, "how can i learn about my Creator?" i imagine your exquisite answer may be something like, "go and read the Words of your Creator in the Quran which has been brought to you and to me and to all of us by God's Holy Messenger. always think deeply and carefully about what God and His Messenger are telling you and what the Words mean, and you will come to understand more about the truth of your Creator!" but my answer (before i had the Quran), "go and be in God's nature with God's animals, they are most pure. interact with His creation, know the animals, experience creation and you will discover more about the truth of your Creator." it's like the difference between learning from textbooks in the classroom vs learning by doing in the field. now, this is my opportunity to integrate another way of wisdom of God which is utterly foreign upon initial encounter yet also truly awesome ...i'm so fascinated as i continue to ponder how wonderfully both ways compliment each other.
i've spent night and day changing this reply, i'm working hard on the lessons i see. i see this particular method of reasoning as the starting point from which all belief, all discussions, all understanding of our Creator and creation must necessarily begin and continue to follow. anything else will cause me to fall into a false sense of faith and incorrect understanding. the more i think, the more i realize i need to have a better grasp on all of this, yet i must include some comments in hopes they expose my weaknesses...how else can i improve if i don't expose what i need to work on? allow me to also reiterate in my own words to see how much i'm understanding what you say which is so crucial and fundamental.
essentially, you have most appropriately described and set a standard of excellence in discerning what we say and believe about our Creator and creation by utilizing this particular method of reasoning. more specifically, you explain:
1. the need to understand where our reasoning is coming from at all times in our understanding of our experiences and reasoning with respect to the existence of Creator and creation. our latest discussions involving how our understanding of Creator and creation relate to "time".
you introduce two spheres and the necessity to make distinction between them. this is new!!! one sphere is the perspective of Creator - God's sphere (relative to one's understanding). a sphere of concluding that Creator must be (i.e. the right language) Absolute where Reality is One and necessarliy can only be One, indivisible, boundless of time/space or anything else...a sphere from which we have no right to speak on behalf of God as if an advocate...outside of prayer, that is. the other sphere is the perspective from creation - our sphere (relative to our understanding). where reality is subjective, relative to one's understanding and thus multiple, not one....a sphere where we apply this method of reasoning to our experiences in the present
2. you further explain why we always need to be aware of where we are in our perspective, i.e. which sphere our reasoning comes from, in talking about Creator and creation. why? simply put, to avoid imitating.
if by some small miracle i've correctly reiterated what you are saying, you think, "ok good, she understands and gets it"...think again, because i don't feel at all comfortable in my ability to recognize the full meaning, qualities and language of either yet.
"We usually confuse the spheres in our reasoning. Reason works only within the sphere of causes. Reason only concludes about the result of our experience. That is called 'Belief", "IMAN". If the conclusion is about something beyond our "experience", then, we cannot bring this conclusion into our reasoning back and base our further reasoning on it. This is a very crucial point."
i see that it is very very crucial to distinguish which sphere our reasoning is coming from, but this method of reasoning is new and foreign to me so i need much more practice and i need to learn and recognize which sphere is which so that i can differentiate between the two to ensure and improve true belief/iman and avoid imitating. please feel free anywhere at any time to ask me, "julie, which sphere is my or your reasoning from here?" as you did in your email about Faith. forcing me to think will help me learn how to recognize these spheres more clearly. please push me hard on this if you don't mind. for example: ask me things like, "where is your awareness lacking, think!...or...why is this God's sphere and not creation sphere...or...what else can you say about such and such...or...how do you confirm that...or...julie you are imitating or speculating, i want you to tell me how and where and with what language you're doing that so that you'll realize it for yourself...or...why are you saying that in this sphere and is that correct or incorrect...or....julie, your reasoning (or language) is incorrect, tell me what's wrong with it and where, how and why it's incorrect....etc." do you see what i need? i hope that gives you a better idea of where i'm weak, inshallah, because i dont understand enough to explain it further with other words. trust me, i'm not the slightest bit intimidated by your toughness because i'm more brutal on myself than you ever will be!!! this is important material!!!!!!!!
"In order to avoid imitation, we need to be aware of "TIME", i.e. continuous coming into existence, or, continuously given existence."
let me reiterate what i understand. in order to avoid imitation we need to understand time, that things are being continuously brought into existence from our perspective in this sphere of creation. applying this particular approach to reasoning is how we may conclude and confirm what we believe and this is the only way to true iman/belief. here is where there i run into some fog in my mind: "in order to avoid imitating, we need to be aware of "TIME"......because?? let me first try to answer this myself to train my thinking, i hope i don't butcher this too badly, inshallah, i want so much to understand. because........
because if i'm aware of time, i.e. my subjective perspective of my experiences and observations of creation in present in that things are continously being brought into existence "now" which prevents me from incorrectly reasoning conclusions from past beliefs or conclusions which come from anything other than (beyond) my experience. i hope i understand this correctly, it's so important, it's also something i need much practice doing to become adept at it.
what confuses me is: what about my present beliefs which 've retained...beliefs that resulted from my past experiences which are not being brought into existence because they were unique and are no longer in existence....yet at that time, i concluded through my own reasoning as a result of my experience, which you say is belief. so what do i do with those beliefs from the past? for example an experience of Allah's attribute of Beauty i remember from the past...am i to drop that belief and confirm a new belief that Beauty is an Absolute attribute of God from present experiences? or do i renew my old belief in the present. i'm a bit lost once i think of anything other than the present. and how are we to forget things when Allah created us with memory? what is the puporse of memory then?
"Only the Absolute reality exists by itself, the creatures exist because there are given existence by the Absolute Reality. Their existence points to the existence of the Absolute Reality."
it is because things cannot create themselves and cannot give themselves existence that their existence necessitates an Absolute Creator.
" "Allah would not have created it"
For the second sentence again, how we can speculate something about God? We cannot. The elephant is created, that is our reality, we are experiencing it here on earth. If there was no elephant how could i talk about it? We need to stop using this kind of language."
here's where i'm confused about the elephant. i don't see how this is "speculating something about God" perhaps because in this specific instance i do not see the distinction between the two spheres, rather i've mixed them so much that i'm not able to see the distinction. here is my reasoning as to why i don't see the elephant stuff as speculation:
we both conclude that the Creator is Absolute because nothing created creates itself nor has the ability to give itself or anything else existence, which means all things created MUST have been given their existence by something else which we call God and God MUST be Absolute because all things are continuously being brought into existence each moment. so, can we not then conclude that all attributes of God are also Absolute? and because one of God's attributes is All-Wise, can we not then conclude that there is wisdom in all created beings the All-Wise God creates? is there anything without wisdom? thus i conclude there is wisdom in the creation of the elephant otherwise "Allah would not have created it". that seems perfectly reasonable and logical to me. if we conclude All-Wise must be an absolute attribute of God, then how is it speculation to conclude God is not going to do something UNwise?
"...Do you now understand that when we say, "the future does not exist", it is a statement which is said in this sphere of creation in order to reason about the existence of the things i experience now. I do not experience the future, it does not exist FOR ME. Nothing more than this. Why do we bring into the discussion what we had concluded about before. We are reasoning now, we are expected to come to a conclusion and say that the Source of this creation MUST know what it is going to be created, because He must be Absolute..."
yes, i'm beginning to understand. i brought that future into the discussion because i had not concluded the future didn't exist, you did...and rather than follow your belief blindly like a sheep, i used my own indepent mind to "argue" (just like you, i do not mean argue for real, just discuss, albeit in a challenging way, to discover deeper understanding...not that i believed what i said) the concept of future. and at the time i'd written what you are being tough about, i had no clear understanding of these "spheres" nor the need to make a distinction between them which you've introduced in this email.
"Again, while reasoning, there is a confusion of the spheres in the last sentences of the email"
yeah, i know because clearly i need help distinguishing between them to prevent mixing them. but again, at the time i'd written "the last sentences" of my email, i'd never heard of "spheres", and at this point i'm thinking you are very frustrated with me. i'm so very sorry as well as disappointed in myself that i do not meet the expectations of correct conclusions or use the correct method of reasoning in less than 24 hours of reading your email and having this method more clearly explained for me in a way i did not see before...as well as learn about "spheres" in this email for the first time. this is why this email of yours holds vitally important lessons for me as i stated in my opening sentence. "more clearly explained" does not mean i have an expert's grasp on it..yet.
YOU are the one with eyes wide open, not me. i am not wise Brother Ali, in fact, i don't understand (though i'm greatly honored) why you would even want my thoughts regarding your article on TIME to begin with. my opinion is meaningless and nothing since i'm only a very ignorant beginner, i'm certainly not someone at your depth of understanding regarding the Quran and the Risale-i Nur. i want to be, and some day i hope to be, inshallah...but i am not there yet. what i AM is a student on a very serious quest seeking to be as close to Allah as humanly possible in my lifetime.
"We need to pray Allah to guide us to a true realization of the concept of time because it help us live in the presence of Allah always."
1. are we ever not in Allah's presence? or is it that we need to confirm we are through this method of reasoning.
2. "in Allah's presence"......so where is Allah?
"If we listen to the Hutba, (sermons) and reason accordingly, it is inevitable for us to speak from God's perspective because they usually use their previous conclusions, if not previous cultural belief, to base their reasoning. I think it is NOT reasoning it is just repetition of themselves. Mostly, claims. As "Hutba" it is fine, NOT as our reasoning while we are not in the position of Speaking to God in the form of prayer."
this describes the confusion about the spheres due to or in conjunction with an incorrect method of reasoning, i.e. this is imitating. i think the confusion comes from never having been introduced to any need to make such a distinction before, and thus the two spheres are habitually seen as one and that mixing them is all that's known, it is the "norm". this way of perceiving Creator and creation is original, unique and valuable. i need to clarify them more as i discussed already.
in a nutshell this email contains these fundamental lessons:
1. based on what i experience, using this particular and correct method of reasoning to confirm my experience to form conclusions which establishes correct iman, as opposed to imitating beliefs.
2. becoming and remaining aware of where my reasoning is coming from, which sphere am i standing in when i talk about the Creator and creation...realizing that i cannot talk on behalf of God outside of prayer.
3. regarding time, there is no boundary of time/space from the sphere of Absolute Creator, and for the sphere we're in of creation, i do not experience past or future, so they do not exist, that is my experience.
4. this in addition to recognition of which sphere my reasoning is coming from is most important: "(i realized and confirmed that)"......"That is not belief based on confirmation and certainty." i.e......learning the correct language and how to confirm with certainty via correct reasoning from my experiences of how things are existing (sphere of creation) in order to form my conclusions about the Source/Creator of those created things (God's sphere) IS fundamentally THE MOST critical thing of all. do not ease up on me until i get this THOROUGHLY, 1000%
below is an example of me testing my knowledge of the above...i'll probably ruin it as my brain is getting so fried from being too stubborn to stop until now...i think it's not specific enough or something in my reasoning is missing...anyway, below is an example self test:
example: remembering various experiences with other creatures...the Beauty and Love i've seen and felt with them...the experience itself taught me this Beauty, this Love must be the Beauty, the Love of God. well, actually, at those times i was so certain of this that i told myself, "this Beauty, this Love IS God", but now i'm learning from you in this email, i need to watch myself and be careful, i can't speak on behalf of God and say "God is ____" outside of prayer. i need to use correct language. so all i can say is "i observed/experienced this and from my experience i conclude these must be attributes of God"
i wonder how faulty my conclusions are. from the various experiences of my example, i concluded this Beauty and Love must be of God. why? because for me, the experience of something that awesome that it took my breath away in its truth, something that profoundly moving that i couldn't speak, something that miraculous, that deeply special, beautiful, precious so far above and beyond the mere physical had to mean there is a Creator of infinite and most Supreme Love, Beauty, Wisdom, Truth etc. my conclusion came from what i felt more than from me sitting there reasoning through it. that i'm even able to feel such profoundness of depth in the way that i do allows me to conclude there is a Creator of my spirit and body to be on earth, and since i'm created, so too are all things.
more test practice, although it's not that great...my brain is getting so fried from all this at this point that i'm starting to not make sense to myself, sorry, i need a break, but i can't give up when i'm almost finished and this is really so very important to me because it's the foundation upon which all else in my growth regarding this wisdom will develop so it MUST be solid yet i am weak as you'll see in this test:
Creator is the only Reality or Absolute. creation/created things reflect aspects of the Creator, just as a book is not separate from its author but the book is also not the author, only an aspect or reflection of the author. creation is never separate from its Creator. the attributes, qualities or aspects of individual creatures and all of creation necessarily reflect the Absolute Creator, how can they not since i conclude they were created by their Creator? how do i confirm this? no created thing can create itself, they can only be created by something else, their existence is dependent on something else. so even though the book is not the author and the created things are not the Creator, the attributes they reflect are Absolute and eternal because they reflect the Creator who is Absolute and eternal.
ok...i'm ending my reply now before i find something else that trips my mind up because i know i wont stop until i get it...i've worked on this email hard for 24 hours with little sleep and food because it was that important to me!!!! i still have much work to do to understand this, in time things will unfold more in my mind, inshallah...but i can say with certainty that after all my study of this email of yours, i feel MUCH BETTER now than i did when i first read it last night..yay!!! :-)
julie
Discussions on TIME-4 (Response)
Assalamu alaikum, Dear Julie,
Thank you very much for your painstaking affords to read the article and write your reflections on it. I am very pleased that you took it very seriously. When i wrote it i was very serious too. I have been thinking about this matter, with no exaggeration, for decades. That does not mean that what i said was right; i needed to concentrate on topic, reflect on it over and over again. It is a life time process to know who our Lord is.
After i finished going over your reflections i felt the need to state the following paragraph.
InshaAllah, this long email does not tire you. You can read it whenever you are free and comfortable. Do not hurry to reply, read it, take your time, and think about it. And then if you like to write down something write it. It will be my pleasure to read it.
I will go over what you have written and write my reflections on your reflections. This seems going to be only a methodological discussion.
we all know that space is curved
Neither am i a scientist. I just took it for granted that it must be so, not because i read it from a “scientific” perspective. Logically and also supported by the Qur’an, if there was a limit to the edge of the universe, after the limit “we will fall into a cliff of nonexistence!”, which is impossible. But, at the same time, as you also say, this universe is limited in its existence. For us, there is only one option: To imagine the universe as “curved”, it is limited but we cannot get to the end! What does it mean? Too huge? I do not think it means that, for human imagination, however it may be huge, we still can imagine the end of something existent. But the Qur’an says, neither human beings nor the Jinns can go out of the regions of the heavens and the earth. Even Jinns! But with the permission or authority of the Lord. That means, to my understanding, there is an end to the regions of the creation but God does not let us go beyond. It is created in a way that no one can go beyond it. The only logical conclusion of it by using the analogy of the world we are experiencing would be that the earth is created in a way that you go straight but you cannot go out of it if you travel continuously on the surface of the earth. (We can travel upwards on the earth but we cannot travel upwards in the universe, because it is going to be always as if we are traveling on the surface of the universe). Than, the moon is the same, the solar system is the same, then, the universe must be the same. In the creation we see harmony, and consistency, and God, the Creator promises in His act of creating and in His Speech as well that He will not change the way He creates. We know that as long as He wills to create He does so following His own way of creating. That is what we experience. He also says in His message, “You will never find any change in God’s way!” (35: 43; 33: 62; 48: 23).
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Not: Miracles shown at the hand of the Messengers are not exemptions to this rule. It is the “way of God” to demonstrate miracles to show that the Messengers of God are appointed by Him, who puts the rules of creation as He wills, He controls them, He administers them etc. It is His decision to create this universe in a way that we can know how we pray, by using our free will, to God to create something for us. That is why the prayers must be made within the way God creates and teaches us what to ask Him to create for us. E.g. we cannot pray to God to change the way He creates the Sun. This prayer is not “prayer”, it is imposing our wish on God; it is never be accepted any way. If i ask God to give me healing without taking a medicine created by God (if it is within the way God creates), it would be not prayer but “examining God.” Practically, those people by not taking medicine if needed (because we learn from our previous experience,) then this person is praying to God not to give her/him healing. ( I will explain why i call this action as prayer, below.)
We have to be very careful not to expect from God to show us “miracles” in this world, as long as we are NOT Messengers of God. Miracles are created not for the Messengers but for the poor people, like us, that they cannot be sure if this person is saying the truth or cheating them. We need to see the miracles in the hands of the Messengers in order to be sure that they are employed by the One Who is the Owner of this universe and is the One Who employed the person as His Messenger.
Again, we cannot expect God to give us “karama” (the minor miracles shown at the hand of the “wali”, the friend of God.) God may create one for somebody who needs it, but we cannot be in expectation of being that person. It is totally up to God to create a “karama”. That is why the companions of the Messenger of God, Muhammad (bpbuh) were not given any “karama’, because they were so sure with the teachings of the Qur’an and the Messenger that they did not need one. Karama may be given at the discretion of God, not at our expectations, because it is given not for the “wali’ but for the people who need to see it to make sure that God is always with them. Again, if we wait for it, it will be a “bargaining with God” as though, if God gives me “karama” i will be sure of His being God. If some one is not really sure of His being s/he is not a “wali” yet. So, s/he should not see her/himself as deserving that. I mean, it will be a contradiction to be in expectation of “karama”.
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That is how we conclude about something which we cannot experience by just using the things we experience and then make an analogy. The universe is created in a way that we can make an analogy. That is another subject.
How did the Muslim scientists conclude that the earth is round, not flat even without making any journey over the surface of the earth? The answer to this question is simple for me: Observing the creation and reading the Qur’an.
Not because i read it from a scientist but it was my conclusion from the verse 33 of the Chapter, Rahman (55).
While our body remains where it is now...
Of course, as you say, our body is subject to continuous change, that is the whole argument of the paper. I mean here, relatively, as compared to the past and the future.
It can only be in one location at a time, not in two locations at once.
The discussion is the relation of our existence in the context of the past and the future and the present. The miracles are not the topic we are discussing here. Please refer to the previous email. There we will see that we cannot talk about anything from God’s perspective, if we are reasoning about the existence and the Giver of the existence. What we see here is that one thing is created in one space and time. The topic is to make it clear that we cannot carry our existence into the future. Can we? Please take notice of this point which is extremely important. Who is carrying my existence into the future? Can I? This matter makes me feel confident that i am ALWAYS in the HANDS OF GOD. When He decides to give me any kind of creation, even at the moment of death, i am still in the HANDS OF GOD. How great a feeling it is! MashaAllah! Thank God that He made it clear for us.
Can we simply conclude that in terms of space, we, like everything else, exist only in one location at a time?
While we are dreaming, our body exists in one place; our spirit may exist in another place. Our imagination may include something from the past experience, for instance. That does not mean that a thing exists in two places; still it exists in one place, as our eyes see something over there, our ears hear some voice coming from somewhere else… but with all these elements in our existence we exist at a place at a time and this time is transient we cannot stop it, we cannot change it, we cannot get hold of it. We are created as we are. However the situation we are in, still the point is to notice that we are created at that moment as we are. It is not us who controls our existence. This is the point to be aware of. Again, we are not discussion here how we are created while we are dreaming. Dreaming person is one person created with the ability to dream, with the ability to see, to imagine etc.
Allah knows what we do not know! so if there are things we do not know,
Please refer to the previous email. We are reasoning whether this statement is true or not. So that we will confirm it! We have to use the things we know and then conclude that the Creator of these things has an infinite knowledge. That is our conclusion. We cannot use our conclusion while we are reasoning to reach that conclusion. It would be circular.
we are so limited by our human condition, there is no way to comprehend that which we cannot comprehend. can we ever be objective enough to speculate..are we not inherently bound to our own subjective minds?
We are created as we are and we are given the opportunity as we are and given the ability to investigate as much as our given abilities allow us to do so. Again, refer to the previous email. I cannot imagine what is not created. That is my reality (i.e. created, relative reality) and i have to use my abilities to understand who i am. What is going on in this world so that i will make sense of my existence. At the end of reasoning, if i come up with a conclusion that i am a created being and i have a Creator Who is Absolute, only then, i would say i should not rely on my limited subjective mind. I cannot say this while i am reasoning about my own existence. It must be my conclusion. That is called “iman-i tahkiki” (belief with research – by using our human qualities coming to a conclusion) as apposed to “iman-i taklidi” (imitative belief – taken for granted belief. Let’s say, somebody believes in God, for instance. If you ask her/him why, s/he must have an answer which makes sense. It must be her/his conclusion by making a research about her/his existence. That is how we are created. The companions of the Messenger of God have never taken for granted that they believed in something because they were born into it, something like that. They questioned the Messenger and read the Qur’an, which is full of evidences. 95% of the Qur’an provides evidences to human beings to think about.
the word "nothing" can't be used. why? because Allah has always existed
How do we know that God has always existed? That must be our conclusion. Please, refer to the previous email. I think it will go on this way. Methodology is extremely important. It may be that we are used to speaking with this language among the believers. But here we are talking about why we should be one of the believers? Is it really correct? That is the way to reach “yaqin” (certainty in the belief in Ghayb, (that which beyond the human perception.)) Belief is our conclusion about the “ghayb”. If we want to be sure about our conclusion we have to use the tools given to us: Human capacity. That is why the Qur’an is replete of evidences from the heavens and the earth and the things in between. There are more that thousands of verses about this. Only the earth is mentioned in the Qur’an 481 times, the heavens 310 times and also the things in between mentioned alongside with them. Why do you think God keeps mentioning the heavens and the earth? The Qur’an presents them as “ayaat” (the signs, the evidences)? Signs, evidences to what?
To me and especially to Nursi, who is one of the best commentators of the Qur’an from belief perspective, this aspect of the Qur’an is neglected throughout the history of the followers of the Qur’an for a thousand years. We have to revive the missing aspect of the Qur’an, especially in this age when people are lost in their cultural claim to be Muslims or in their traditional, ethnic identities, without questioning why they follow Muslim culture or Christian culture or Hindu or Buddhist culture.
No way to speak with a claim while learning “why to believe”. As the Qur’an says, - by the way, this expression is so beautiful, i really love it - ”Hatu burhanakum” (bring your evidences) (21: 24; 27: 64; 28: 75) Look at this beautiful argument that the Qur’an teaches us how to use our reasoning, why should not we follow it?
“Could there be any divine power besides God? Say: ‘produce your evidences – if you truly believe in your claim!’” (27: 64).
in the time before the existence of the universe which our human capacity allows us to comprehend
“The time before the existence of the universe” will not be imagined, it would be our SPECULATION. Speculation is not really imagination. Imagination is something we experience and then think about it and bring it into our imagination in the form of imagination, otherwise it will be just a speculation. Speculation is not based on anything which existed before or is existing now.
Artist’s imagination is the usage of her or his previous experiences or mixing up the previous experiences. We acquire this quality through experiences, by repetition.
By the way, there is a dimension of this matter related to “inspiration”. But we can talk about the “inspiration” only after establishing that the things are created by someone Who answers the prayers. This inspiration is a response of the Creator to the person’s constant prayer to Him by practicing her/his abilities. That is called “praying by action”, the person may not mean to pray to God, but this is the way how things are coming into existence. That means how things are created. The more we use our abilities the better they are developed. It is not us who are developing them but we are just asking the Creator to develop them for us. That is how the creation takes place. We ask the One Who gives existence to create these abilities in a more developed way. We cannot develop them. We ask to something else to develop them for us. This “something” is the One Who give existence to the things, and we call that One, God, the Absolute, and Necessary Being.
we also know the future exists because we know Allah knows what the future will be. but Allah is the only one who knows the future.
Do you notice you are giving the answer to your own question: but Allah is the only one who knows the future.
Yes, if we conclude that there is God Who is omniscient, then, this conclusion is correct. Not while we are trying to see if an Omniscient One exists. While reasoning we should not use our previous conclusion in order to prove that this conclusion is true. It will be circular, “tautology”, or more correctly, “begging the question” as it is called.
depend on each other
This is a good suggestion. I took it. Thanks.
how many aspects of Existence are there?
Yes, you are right. There is nothing more than existence. We observe it as if it has two aspects: Time and space. The article is to say this: There is only existence.
"How can that which does not exist give existence to the present..or..anything in the present" ?
I made the necessary correction, thank you.
without the prior moment, the present moment could not be, could not "exist". this means the present moment ISN'T independent of the previous one(s) existence. the definition of present is dependent upon that which it is not, it is not past and not future.
The purpose of the article is to demonstrate that the prior moment (past) cannot be the Creator of the present. The present moment IS independent of the previous one’s existence. This is the whole point. Is the past the creator of the present? Itself does not exist in the present moment. It is continuously in need of being given existence. The way the things are given existence SEEMS TO BE that they are the continuation of the past. That is what the philosophers wanted to tell people. But when we think about the quality of the beings we understand that the past cannot make a new present, which is similar yet different. Later on, philosophers realized this contradiction, and gave up the idea of finding the “Ultimate Truth”, they said there is no Truth, philosophy is to ask questions not to come with a certain answer, instead of admitting, “the Ultimate Truth” is the One Who Gives existence to the things and He is Absolute, not of the same kind of this universe.
Similarity cannot necessitate the creatorship; similar things cannot be the creator of each other. You said at the end of the paragraph: the definition of present is dependent upon that which it is not, it is not past and not future.
Yes, the past and the future cannot be the Creator. The reason asks, “Who is, then, the Creator?” Since they exist, we need a source of this existence.
The present is NOT dependent on the past. That is why you said: this is seemingly ever convoluted...
It is not convoluted, the base of our conceptualization was wrong from the beginning, to me.
something that fleets
No, time does not fleet. That is our perception of it. There is no independent existence as we call “time”. Time is our concept to express our perception of creation. There is nothing but CONTINUOUS ACT OF CREATING. That is what we observe. Then you can solve your question. Just do not give an independent existence to time. That is why the article concludes that “every moment is a new act of creation” and what the related verse (55: 29) says is correct, what the philosophers claimed that things (atoms) exist eternally is wrong, illogical!
if the existence of a moment depends on it's previous moment, that does not minimize in any way the miraculousness of things being brought into existence out of the mystery of future.
If we could say that “the existence of a moment depends on its previous moment”, how then we would be able to talk about miraculousness of things? The existence of a moment depends on its Absolute Creator because it is a new existence and it needs a creator; nothing can depend on its previous existence; because the previous existence itself does not exist in the present moment.
aging itself is a process implicitly connected to time.
But i explained above the Creator is creating the things in a way to teach us how we should pray Him to create something for us if there was no “order” in the creation.
Aging is the order, creation is a new act of creation. The article is talking about the creation. Similarity between the previous act of creation and the present creation does not necessarily make the present dependent on the past. This is how the things are given existence and shows that the Creator is ever changing the act of creation but in order. We seem to be aging. We are not aging, we are given a new existence slightly different from the previous one. That is it. As far as our creation is concerned we are newly being created. Change rests on the Choice of the Creator.
He will may tell you when you look at your own present existence;
When we look at our present existence He WILL tell us why He is giving death. The creation is to reveal the Creator’s purpose in creating this world. But we MAY understand it or not, depends on our usage of our free will. That is something else; we are talking about creation in this article, not human free will.
do you mean our actions based on choice?
No, no, there is a confusion here, we chose, we cannot act; we chose, the Creator Acts, creates. There is no human action; there is only human choice that is human free will. We are responsible because we chose, i.e. we ask, pray to the Creator to create whatever we have chosen. This is extremely important. One of the main aims of this article is to establish that human beings do nothing but, whether they are aware or not, they pray to the Creator to create for them whatever they desire. The following matter arises from this misunderstanding of “prayer”.
atheists and agnostics are two types of unbelievers who also practice or utilize free will, but they are not conscious of a Creator and so they do not pray.
Every body prays to God only. All of us are, in fact, ibadullah (God’s worshippers). Our consciousness, recognition of, and/or submission to this reality makes us either believers or nonbelievers. Prayer is not used here to meaning “verbal supplication.” That is something after we establish that we are doing nothing but praying God, then this realization comes into our free will and then we start supplicating, beseeching God by using our tongues and hearts. In the Risale-i Nur this explained as “fitri du’a”. Every creature is praying by their “tongue of disposition”.
what do you mean actions as answers? and to what prayers? can you give me a clear example of what you're saying?
The sentence says, "actions we claim to perform" I think now it may be clear to you: There is no action, “actions we CLAIM TO PERFORM.” But only we claim, i.e. we think we are doing something. We are just asking the Create what we want, nothing more than praying to God. But, we may not be aware of this. That is a completely different matter. Whether we accept or not, does not change the reality that “we cannot create anything.”
For your conclusions:
1. time/space are mysteries, and additionally they are aspects of a greater mystery called existence.
If time and space and even existence as greater mystery, then, how can we talk about God? Where did we get this idea of God, then? Not knowing the reality of a thing, is different from knowing the existence of a thing. We do not know the reality of anything in this world, but we do know that existence exists. And it needs a Creator because it is given continuous existence anew; it is given existence consciously, orderly, wisely, mercily etc. The Creator must have these qualities eternally, because these qualities demonstrate that their source must be eternal. That is how we can talk about God. Otherwise, how?
we cannot say or know if time/space exists in the hereafter
From the first place where did we get this idea of hereafter? How do we know the hereafter, if we did not use this creation as an evidence for my belief in God as the Eternal Being?
If you we say we got this idea from the Qur’an, or scripture, this is the problem, how do we know that the scripture is true if we did not use the creation as signs of the “ghayb” (all the articles of belief) for us.
As the Qur’an says in the Chapter, Al-I Imran (3), verses, 190-191: “Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (signs, messages) for men of understanding, (190) Such as remember God, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider (reflect on) the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! You have not created this in vain (without meaning and purpose.) Glory be to You! Keep us safe from suffering through fire!”
past and future originate only from our imagination.
This point also needs to be careful. They do not originate from our imagination at all, these are our conceptualization of the existence. We can only speak with our concepts and God also teaches us in the Qur’an by using our concepts, but God teaches us the real meaning of these concepts. So, we can use our concepts and reflect on the created things. Without using our concepts how can we think? That is how we are created.
but this "definition" is not Absolute truth...only the Creator is Absolute truth.
Again the same problem: Methodology. We are talking about “our” definition. This is not expected to be Absolute Truth. If we had the Absolute Truth there would be no need of all these talks. We are looking for the Absolute. How can we talk about the Creator is Absolute Truth? That must be our conclusion. Since in this universe there is no Absolute = “La ilahe”, but the universe exists as we experience it. We do experience it and then conclude that it must come from an Absolute Source. Our conclusion will be about the existence of Absolute Who is not of the nature of this created universe. But this universe is the source of my conclusion. Without using the universe as “ayaat”, where did we get this notion of Creator?
Of course, the importance of understanding TIME lies right here. If act of creating is taking place continuously, then we need to be aware that we are always at the presence of the Creator. He is not away from us. He is always with us. Is not that wonderful for us? Do not we need a conception of the Creator Who takes care of us continuously right this moment? Does not our spirits look for an Owner Who is ever present in our lives. That is the core of belief, i think. By the way, this is not my personal idea, i have not invented it. First, this is what the Qur’an expresses. Second, this idea was put forward in a formulated way by Imam Hasan al-Ash’ari, in 9th century. And then followed by Al-Ghazali etc. now by Said Nursi.
Can you imagine without loving the beautiful act of creation of animals, plants, clouds, stars etc. we would love the Creator? I do not think it is possible. It needs continuous attention to and reflection on the creation. I believe the hadith which says, “Renew your belief with “la ilahe illallah” means this. You can read the piece in The Letters of Said Nursi on this topic. It is beautiful. If you like you can read it with Osman and his wife if you visit them. If you like we can study it in one of our Sunday online discussions, even may be this Sunday. If you say yes, we need to let Andria know this so that she will announce it accordingly.
I think we take our belief for granted that we believe in God and then talk about it. This is only repeating ourselves. “Illallah” must be our conclusion in every moment. We cannot say “illallah”, therefore, “Lailahe”. That is logically impossible. That is why most of the time some Muslims get together in the mosques and keep repeating themselves. They need to follow the way the Qur’an shows us; the Qur’an is a guide to us in our search of its own truthfulness as well. That is why i really appreciate Nursi’s approach. Following the method of the Qur’an he helps us confirm our beliefs in the truthfulness of the Qur’an and the Messenger. That is the thing we need to learn and then we confirm our belief on every occasion. We can have confidence in the belief we claim to have, and can also spread the truthfulness of this belief to those who are searching for it. This is the way the Messengers followed. It needs a serious study.
3. NOTHING which exists is separate from its Creator it...it isn't possible. any separation is a self induced illusion, and only that, nothing else
I think it was a good start. You have lost the trace. Any way, but it is very nice. How can we confirm that we cannot separate the things from their Creator? That is what we are studying in this article. This is our conclusion which can be stated only after we study the creation, try to reflect on the things we interact, take them seriously as the base of our belief in their Creator and the attributes of this Creator.
how many dimensions to "reality" are there. what exactly is reality?
The reality for me, i love my life, the life of an animal, our existence and when i get hungry i love eating some food. My reason asks, “Where did they come from? Who is preparing these meaningful things? If we are to talk about reality in this sense it is “our reality” which means that is how we are (Not Absolute Reality, of course). Then continue, is it at all possible that my experience of this existence happens to be by itself etc.? Questions follow each other. Then, we need to look for the answer. If we follow this way, we can understand that we are created like this. If you do not believe this read the article on TIME :) I am kidding! Read the universe first and we will understand that we cannot really know the purpose of existence, but what we can know is this: “There must be a purpose of this existence.” If we cannot get the answer to our inquiry, then the Maker of this universe must tell us, because He seems to be a Wise One, He created us with this inquiry and thus, He must Speak to us. How? Read the Messages of those who claim to be Messengers of God. See if they make sense to you or not. And then decide accordingly.
There are two ways of reading the messages: 1- Read them as a guide, 2- and then read them to confirm that they make sense to us as the Word of the Creator. They must go together; look for their inner consistency.
Do you remember receiving any email from me about “Guide to Reading the Scripture of the “Other”?” If not and if you like i can send it to you.
and thus the truth remains an elusive mystery.
We are not defining any thing; we are trying to understand what we are. We may come up with a conclusion that we are not enough to find the Ultimate Truth. This recognition of our impotence is not an elusion. To conclude that we are created beings is not an elusion. It is not a mystery, it is my own experience. Where we confuse that we think we ourselves are going to define the Truth. Let’s see, if we can. I do not think we can. So, that does not mean that we know nothing, or, we cannot be sure of any thing. We can be sure of our impotence, our created-ness, our neediness for every thing we feel the need of etc. That is to say, we are not the creators of ourselves. Do not you think when we say, “La ilahe” we mean this?
We can be sure of the truthfulness of “La ilahe”. How about “Illallah”?
Yes, it is also sure. If “La ilahe”, since existence is real, the Giver of Existence also logically must be real: “Illallah”. We are not claiming to know God, we are declaring that “I witness in this universe that there is nothing to be taken as the source of this existence. But since this existence exists as i experience it, then, i conclude that definitely there must be a Giver of Existence. Since this existence declares that every thing is continuously coming into existence with perfect harmony, order, wisdom, knowledge, purpose, mercy, meaningfully, choice etc., under the witnessing of these qualities of the things, i witness that this Creator must be Absolute. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW THE ABSOLUTE BUT I CONFIRM THAT THE ABSOLUTE EXISTS. THAT IS WHAT I CALL GOD, THE CREATOR, THE TRANSENDENTAL BEING, EVER PRESENT WITH HIS ACT OF CREATION IN THIS UNIVERSE. EVERY THING MUST BE CREATED BY HIM ALONE.
That is “La ilaha illallah” We are sure of the truthfulness of this statement. That is why we call ourselves “believers in God and submitters to this truth: muslims”.
I really enjoyed going through your “Reflections on Time.” I did the corrections you offered, thank you very much again. Your criticisms were extremely useful and mind opening for me. May Allah reward you with whatever you are HOPING from HIM.
May God’s peace and blessings be with you forever.
Your br. ali
Thank you very much for your painstaking affords to read the article and write your reflections on it. I am very pleased that you took it very seriously. When i wrote it i was very serious too. I have been thinking about this matter, with no exaggeration, for decades. That does not mean that what i said was right; i needed to concentrate on topic, reflect on it over and over again. It is a life time process to know who our Lord is.
After i finished going over your reflections i felt the need to state the following paragraph.
InshaAllah, this long email does not tire you. You can read it whenever you are free and comfortable. Do not hurry to reply, read it, take your time, and think about it. And then if you like to write down something write it. It will be my pleasure to read it.
I will go over what you have written and write my reflections on your reflections. This seems going to be only a methodological discussion.
we all know that space is curved
Neither am i a scientist. I just took it for granted that it must be so, not because i read it from a “scientific” perspective. Logically and also supported by the Qur’an, if there was a limit to the edge of the universe, after the limit “we will fall into a cliff of nonexistence!”, which is impossible. But, at the same time, as you also say, this universe is limited in its existence. For us, there is only one option: To imagine the universe as “curved”, it is limited but we cannot get to the end! What does it mean? Too huge? I do not think it means that, for human imagination, however it may be huge, we still can imagine the end of something existent. But the Qur’an says, neither human beings nor the Jinns can go out of the regions of the heavens and the earth. Even Jinns! But with the permission or authority of the Lord. That means, to my understanding, there is an end to the regions of the creation but God does not let us go beyond. It is created in a way that no one can go beyond it. The only logical conclusion of it by using the analogy of the world we are experiencing would be that the earth is created in a way that you go straight but you cannot go out of it if you travel continuously on the surface of the earth. (We can travel upwards on the earth but we cannot travel upwards in the universe, because it is going to be always as if we are traveling on the surface of the universe). Than, the moon is the same, the solar system is the same, then, the universe must be the same. In the creation we see harmony, and consistency, and God, the Creator promises in His act of creating and in His Speech as well that He will not change the way He creates. We know that as long as He wills to create He does so following His own way of creating. That is what we experience. He also says in His message, “You will never find any change in God’s way!” (35: 43; 33: 62; 48: 23).
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Not: Miracles shown at the hand of the Messengers are not exemptions to this rule. It is the “way of God” to demonstrate miracles to show that the Messengers of God are appointed by Him, who puts the rules of creation as He wills, He controls them, He administers them etc. It is His decision to create this universe in a way that we can know how we pray, by using our free will, to God to create something for us. That is why the prayers must be made within the way God creates and teaches us what to ask Him to create for us. E.g. we cannot pray to God to change the way He creates the Sun. This prayer is not “prayer”, it is imposing our wish on God; it is never be accepted any way. If i ask God to give me healing without taking a medicine created by God (if it is within the way God creates), it would be not prayer but “examining God.” Practically, those people by not taking medicine if needed (because we learn from our previous experience,) then this person is praying to God not to give her/him healing. ( I will explain why i call this action as prayer, below.)
We have to be very careful not to expect from God to show us “miracles” in this world, as long as we are NOT Messengers of God. Miracles are created not for the Messengers but for the poor people, like us, that they cannot be sure if this person is saying the truth or cheating them. We need to see the miracles in the hands of the Messengers in order to be sure that they are employed by the One Who is the Owner of this universe and is the One Who employed the person as His Messenger.
Again, we cannot expect God to give us “karama” (the minor miracles shown at the hand of the “wali”, the friend of God.) God may create one for somebody who needs it, but we cannot be in expectation of being that person. It is totally up to God to create a “karama”. That is why the companions of the Messenger of God, Muhammad (bpbuh) were not given any “karama’, because they were so sure with the teachings of the Qur’an and the Messenger that they did not need one. Karama may be given at the discretion of God, not at our expectations, because it is given not for the “wali’ but for the people who need to see it to make sure that God is always with them. Again, if we wait for it, it will be a “bargaining with God” as though, if God gives me “karama” i will be sure of His being God. If some one is not really sure of His being s/he is not a “wali” yet. So, s/he should not see her/himself as deserving that. I mean, it will be a contradiction to be in expectation of “karama”.
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That is how we conclude about something which we cannot experience by just using the things we experience and then make an analogy. The universe is created in a way that we can make an analogy. That is another subject.
How did the Muslim scientists conclude that the earth is round, not flat even without making any journey over the surface of the earth? The answer to this question is simple for me: Observing the creation and reading the Qur’an.
Not because i read it from a scientist but it was my conclusion from the verse 33 of the Chapter, Rahman (55).
While our body remains where it is now...
Of course, as you say, our body is subject to continuous change, that is the whole argument of the paper. I mean here, relatively, as compared to the past and the future.
It can only be in one location at a time, not in two locations at once.
The discussion is the relation of our existence in the context of the past and the future and the present. The miracles are not the topic we are discussing here. Please refer to the previous email. There we will see that we cannot talk about anything from God’s perspective, if we are reasoning about the existence and the Giver of the existence. What we see here is that one thing is created in one space and time. The topic is to make it clear that we cannot carry our existence into the future. Can we? Please take notice of this point which is extremely important. Who is carrying my existence into the future? Can I? This matter makes me feel confident that i am ALWAYS in the HANDS OF GOD. When He decides to give me any kind of creation, even at the moment of death, i am still in the HANDS OF GOD. How great a feeling it is! MashaAllah! Thank God that He made it clear for us.
Can we simply conclude that in terms of space, we, like everything else, exist only in one location at a time?
While we are dreaming, our body exists in one place; our spirit may exist in another place. Our imagination may include something from the past experience, for instance. That does not mean that a thing exists in two places; still it exists in one place, as our eyes see something over there, our ears hear some voice coming from somewhere else… but with all these elements in our existence we exist at a place at a time and this time is transient we cannot stop it, we cannot change it, we cannot get hold of it. We are created as we are. However the situation we are in, still the point is to notice that we are created at that moment as we are. It is not us who controls our existence. This is the point to be aware of. Again, we are not discussion here how we are created while we are dreaming. Dreaming person is one person created with the ability to dream, with the ability to see, to imagine etc.
Allah knows what we do not know! so if there are things we do not know,
Please refer to the previous email. We are reasoning whether this statement is true or not. So that we will confirm it! We have to use the things we know and then conclude that the Creator of these things has an infinite knowledge. That is our conclusion. We cannot use our conclusion while we are reasoning to reach that conclusion. It would be circular.
we are so limited by our human condition, there is no way to comprehend that which we cannot comprehend. can we ever be objective enough to speculate..are we not inherently bound to our own subjective minds?
We are created as we are and we are given the opportunity as we are and given the ability to investigate as much as our given abilities allow us to do so. Again, refer to the previous email. I cannot imagine what is not created. That is my reality (i.e. created, relative reality) and i have to use my abilities to understand who i am. What is going on in this world so that i will make sense of my existence. At the end of reasoning, if i come up with a conclusion that i am a created being and i have a Creator Who is Absolute, only then, i would say i should not rely on my limited subjective mind. I cannot say this while i am reasoning about my own existence. It must be my conclusion. That is called “iman-i tahkiki” (belief with research – by using our human qualities coming to a conclusion) as apposed to “iman-i taklidi” (imitative belief – taken for granted belief. Let’s say, somebody believes in God, for instance. If you ask her/him why, s/he must have an answer which makes sense. It must be her/his conclusion by making a research about her/his existence. That is how we are created. The companions of the Messenger of God have never taken for granted that they believed in something because they were born into it, something like that. They questioned the Messenger and read the Qur’an, which is full of evidences. 95% of the Qur’an provides evidences to human beings to think about.
the word "nothing" can't be used. why? because Allah has always existed
How do we know that God has always existed? That must be our conclusion. Please, refer to the previous email. I think it will go on this way. Methodology is extremely important. It may be that we are used to speaking with this language among the believers. But here we are talking about why we should be one of the believers? Is it really correct? That is the way to reach “yaqin” (certainty in the belief in Ghayb, (that which beyond the human perception.)) Belief is our conclusion about the “ghayb”. If we want to be sure about our conclusion we have to use the tools given to us: Human capacity. That is why the Qur’an is replete of evidences from the heavens and the earth and the things in between. There are more that thousands of verses about this. Only the earth is mentioned in the Qur’an 481 times, the heavens 310 times and also the things in between mentioned alongside with them. Why do you think God keeps mentioning the heavens and the earth? The Qur’an presents them as “ayaat” (the signs, the evidences)? Signs, evidences to what?
To me and especially to Nursi, who is one of the best commentators of the Qur’an from belief perspective, this aspect of the Qur’an is neglected throughout the history of the followers of the Qur’an for a thousand years. We have to revive the missing aspect of the Qur’an, especially in this age when people are lost in their cultural claim to be Muslims or in their traditional, ethnic identities, without questioning why they follow Muslim culture or Christian culture or Hindu or Buddhist culture.
No way to speak with a claim while learning “why to believe”. As the Qur’an says, - by the way, this expression is so beautiful, i really love it - ”Hatu burhanakum” (bring your evidences) (21: 24; 27: 64; 28: 75) Look at this beautiful argument that the Qur’an teaches us how to use our reasoning, why should not we follow it?
“Could there be any divine power besides God? Say: ‘produce your evidences – if you truly believe in your claim!’” (27: 64).
in the time before the existence of the universe which our human capacity allows us to comprehend
“The time before the existence of the universe” will not be imagined, it would be our SPECULATION. Speculation is not really imagination. Imagination is something we experience and then think about it and bring it into our imagination in the form of imagination, otherwise it will be just a speculation. Speculation is not based on anything which existed before or is existing now.
Artist’s imagination is the usage of her or his previous experiences or mixing up the previous experiences. We acquire this quality through experiences, by repetition.
By the way, there is a dimension of this matter related to “inspiration”. But we can talk about the “inspiration” only after establishing that the things are created by someone Who answers the prayers. This inspiration is a response of the Creator to the person’s constant prayer to Him by practicing her/his abilities. That is called “praying by action”, the person may not mean to pray to God, but this is the way how things are coming into existence. That means how things are created. The more we use our abilities the better they are developed. It is not us who are developing them but we are just asking the Creator to develop them for us. That is how the creation takes place. We ask the One Who gives existence to create these abilities in a more developed way. We cannot develop them. We ask to something else to develop them for us. This “something” is the One Who give existence to the things, and we call that One, God, the Absolute, and Necessary Being.
we also know the future exists because we know Allah knows what the future will be. but Allah is the only one who knows the future.
Do you notice you are giving the answer to your own question: but Allah is the only one who knows the future.
Yes, if we conclude that there is God Who is omniscient, then, this conclusion is correct. Not while we are trying to see if an Omniscient One exists. While reasoning we should not use our previous conclusion in order to prove that this conclusion is true. It will be circular, “tautology”, or more correctly, “begging the question” as it is called.
depend on each other
This is a good suggestion. I took it. Thanks.
how many aspects of Existence are there?
Yes, you are right. There is nothing more than existence. We observe it as if it has two aspects: Time and space. The article is to say this: There is only existence.
"How can that which does not exist give existence to the present..or..anything in the present" ?
I made the necessary correction, thank you.
without the prior moment, the present moment could not be, could not "exist". this means the present moment ISN'T independent of the previous one(s) existence. the definition of present is dependent upon that which it is not, it is not past and not future.
The purpose of the article is to demonstrate that the prior moment (past) cannot be the Creator of the present. The present moment IS independent of the previous one’s existence. This is the whole point. Is the past the creator of the present? Itself does not exist in the present moment. It is continuously in need of being given existence. The way the things are given existence SEEMS TO BE that they are the continuation of the past. That is what the philosophers wanted to tell people. But when we think about the quality of the beings we understand that the past cannot make a new present, which is similar yet different. Later on, philosophers realized this contradiction, and gave up the idea of finding the “Ultimate Truth”, they said there is no Truth, philosophy is to ask questions not to come with a certain answer, instead of admitting, “the Ultimate Truth” is the One Who Gives existence to the things and He is Absolute, not of the same kind of this universe.
Similarity cannot necessitate the creatorship; similar things cannot be the creator of each other. You said at the end of the paragraph: the definition of present is dependent upon that which it is not, it is not past and not future.
Yes, the past and the future cannot be the Creator. The reason asks, “Who is, then, the Creator?” Since they exist, we need a source of this existence.
The present is NOT dependent on the past. That is why you said: this is seemingly ever convoluted...
It is not convoluted, the base of our conceptualization was wrong from the beginning, to me.
something that fleets
No, time does not fleet. That is our perception of it. There is no independent existence as we call “time”. Time is our concept to express our perception of creation. There is nothing but CONTINUOUS ACT OF CREATING. That is what we observe. Then you can solve your question. Just do not give an independent existence to time. That is why the article concludes that “every moment is a new act of creation” and what the related verse (55: 29) says is correct, what the philosophers claimed that things (atoms) exist eternally is wrong, illogical!
if the existence of a moment depends on it's previous moment, that does not minimize in any way the miraculousness of things being brought into existence out of the mystery of future.
If we could say that “the existence of a moment depends on its previous moment”, how then we would be able to talk about miraculousness of things? The existence of a moment depends on its Absolute Creator because it is a new existence and it needs a creator; nothing can depend on its previous existence; because the previous existence itself does not exist in the present moment.
aging itself is a process implicitly connected to time.
But i explained above the Creator is creating the things in a way to teach us how we should pray Him to create something for us if there was no “order” in the creation.
Aging is the order, creation is a new act of creation. The article is talking about the creation. Similarity between the previous act of creation and the present creation does not necessarily make the present dependent on the past. This is how the things are given existence and shows that the Creator is ever changing the act of creation but in order. We seem to be aging. We are not aging, we are given a new existence slightly different from the previous one. That is it. As far as our creation is concerned we are newly being created. Change rests on the Choice of the Creator.
He will may tell you when you look at your own present existence;
When we look at our present existence He WILL tell us why He is giving death. The creation is to reveal the Creator’s purpose in creating this world. But we MAY understand it or not, depends on our usage of our free will. That is something else; we are talking about creation in this article, not human free will.
do you mean our actions based on choice?
No, no, there is a confusion here, we chose, we cannot act; we chose, the Creator Acts, creates. There is no human action; there is only human choice that is human free will. We are responsible because we chose, i.e. we ask, pray to the Creator to create whatever we have chosen. This is extremely important. One of the main aims of this article is to establish that human beings do nothing but, whether they are aware or not, they pray to the Creator to create for them whatever they desire. The following matter arises from this misunderstanding of “prayer”.
atheists and agnostics are two types of unbelievers who also practice or utilize free will, but they are not conscious of a Creator and so they do not pray.
Every body prays to God only. All of us are, in fact, ibadullah (God’s worshippers). Our consciousness, recognition of, and/or submission to this reality makes us either believers or nonbelievers. Prayer is not used here to meaning “verbal supplication.” That is something after we establish that we are doing nothing but praying God, then this realization comes into our free will and then we start supplicating, beseeching God by using our tongues and hearts. In the Risale-i Nur this explained as “fitri du’a”. Every creature is praying by their “tongue of disposition”.
what do you mean actions as answers? and to what prayers? can you give me a clear example of what you're saying?
The sentence says, "actions we claim to perform" I think now it may be clear to you: There is no action, “actions we CLAIM TO PERFORM.” But only we claim, i.e. we think we are doing something. We are just asking the Create what we want, nothing more than praying to God. But, we may not be aware of this. That is a completely different matter. Whether we accept or not, does not change the reality that “we cannot create anything.”
For your conclusions:
1. time/space are mysteries, and additionally they are aspects of a greater mystery called existence.
If time and space and even existence as greater mystery, then, how can we talk about God? Where did we get this idea of God, then? Not knowing the reality of a thing, is different from knowing the existence of a thing. We do not know the reality of anything in this world, but we do know that existence exists. And it needs a Creator because it is given continuous existence anew; it is given existence consciously, orderly, wisely, mercily etc. The Creator must have these qualities eternally, because these qualities demonstrate that their source must be eternal. That is how we can talk about God. Otherwise, how?
we cannot say or know if time/space exists in the hereafter
From the first place where did we get this idea of hereafter? How do we know the hereafter, if we did not use this creation as an evidence for my belief in God as the Eternal Being?
If you we say we got this idea from the Qur’an, or scripture, this is the problem, how do we know that the scripture is true if we did not use the creation as signs of the “ghayb” (all the articles of belief) for us.
As the Qur’an says in the Chapter, Al-I Imran (3), verses, 190-191: “Verily, in the creation of the heavens and the earth and (in) the difference of night and day are tokens (signs, messages) for men of understanding, (190) Such as remember God, standing, sitting, and reclining, and consider (reflect on) the creation of the heavens and the earth, (and say): Our Lord! You have not created this in vain (without meaning and purpose.) Glory be to You! Keep us safe from suffering through fire!”
past and future originate only from our imagination.
This point also needs to be careful. They do not originate from our imagination at all, these are our conceptualization of the existence. We can only speak with our concepts and God also teaches us in the Qur’an by using our concepts, but God teaches us the real meaning of these concepts. So, we can use our concepts and reflect on the created things. Without using our concepts how can we think? That is how we are created.
but this "definition" is not Absolute truth...only the Creator is Absolute truth.
Again the same problem: Methodology. We are talking about “our” definition. This is not expected to be Absolute Truth. If we had the Absolute Truth there would be no need of all these talks. We are looking for the Absolute. How can we talk about the Creator is Absolute Truth? That must be our conclusion. Since in this universe there is no Absolute = “La ilahe”, but the universe exists as we experience it. We do experience it and then conclude that it must come from an Absolute Source. Our conclusion will be about the existence of Absolute Who is not of the nature of this created universe. But this universe is the source of my conclusion. Without using the universe as “ayaat”, where did we get this notion of Creator?
Of course, the importance of understanding TIME lies right here. If act of creating is taking place continuously, then we need to be aware that we are always at the presence of the Creator. He is not away from us. He is always with us. Is not that wonderful for us? Do not we need a conception of the Creator Who takes care of us continuously right this moment? Does not our spirits look for an Owner Who is ever present in our lives. That is the core of belief, i think. By the way, this is not my personal idea, i have not invented it. First, this is what the Qur’an expresses. Second, this idea was put forward in a formulated way by Imam Hasan al-Ash’ari, in 9th century. And then followed by Al-Ghazali etc. now by Said Nursi.
Can you imagine without loving the beautiful act of creation of animals, plants, clouds, stars etc. we would love the Creator? I do not think it is possible. It needs continuous attention to and reflection on the creation. I believe the hadith which says, “Renew your belief with “la ilahe illallah” means this. You can read the piece in The Letters of Said Nursi on this topic. It is beautiful. If you like you can read it with Osman and his wife if you visit them. If you like we can study it in one of our Sunday online discussions, even may be this Sunday. If you say yes, we need to let Andria know this so that she will announce it accordingly.
I think we take our belief for granted that we believe in God and then talk about it. This is only repeating ourselves. “Illallah” must be our conclusion in every moment. We cannot say “illallah”, therefore, “Lailahe”. That is logically impossible. That is why most of the time some Muslims get together in the mosques and keep repeating themselves. They need to follow the way the Qur’an shows us; the Qur’an is a guide to us in our search of its own truthfulness as well. That is why i really appreciate Nursi’s approach. Following the method of the Qur’an he helps us confirm our beliefs in the truthfulness of the Qur’an and the Messenger. That is the thing we need to learn and then we confirm our belief on every occasion. We can have confidence in the belief we claim to have, and can also spread the truthfulness of this belief to those who are searching for it. This is the way the Messengers followed. It needs a serious study.
3. NOTHING which exists is separate from its Creator it...it isn't possible. any separation is a self induced illusion, and only that, nothing else
I think it was a good start. You have lost the trace. Any way, but it is very nice. How can we confirm that we cannot separate the things from their Creator? That is what we are studying in this article. This is our conclusion which can be stated only after we study the creation, try to reflect on the things we interact, take them seriously as the base of our belief in their Creator and the attributes of this Creator.
how many dimensions to "reality" are there. what exactly is reality?
The reality for me, i love my life, the life of an animal, our existence and when i get hungry i love eating some food. My reason asks, “Where did they come from? Who is preparing these meaningful things? If we are to talk about reality in this sense it is “our reality” which means that is how we are (Not Absolute Reality, of course). Then continue, is it at all possible that my experience of this existence happens to be by itself etc.? Questions follow each other. Then, we need to look for the answer. If we follow this way, we can understand that we are created like this. If you do not believe this read the article on TIME :) I am kidding! Read the universe first and we will understand that we cannot really know the purpose of existence, but what we can know is this: “There must be a purpose of this existence.” If we cannot get the answer to our inquiry, then the Maker of this universe must tell us, because He seems to be a Wise One, He created us with this inquiry and thus, He must Speak to us. How? Read the Messages of those who claim to be Messengers of God. See if they make sense to you or not. And then decide accordingly.
There are two ways of reading the messages: 1- Read them as a guide, 2- and then read them to confirm that they make sense to us as the Word of the Creator. They must go together; look for their inner consistency.
Do you remember receiving any email from me about “Guide to Reading the Scripture of the “Other”?” If not and if you like i can send it to you.
and thus the truth remains an elusive mystery.
We are not defining any thing; we are trying to understand what we are. We may come up with a conclusion that we are not enough to find the Ultimate Truth. This recognition of our impotence is not an elusion. To conclude that we are created beings is not an elusion. It is not a mystery, it is my own experience. Where we confuse that we think we ourselves are going to define the Truth. Let’s see, if we can. I do not think we can. So, that does not mean that we know nothing, or, we cannot be sure of any thing. We can be sure of our impotence, our created-ness, our neediness for every thing we feel the need of etc. That is to say, we are not the creators of ourselves. Do not you think when we say, “La ilahe” we mean this?
We can be sure of the truthfulness of “La ilahe”. How about “Illallah”?
Yes, it is also sure. If “La ilahe”, since existence is real, the Giver of Existence also logically must be real: “Illallah”. We are not claiming to know God, we are declaring that “I witness in this universe that there is nothing to be taken as the source of this existence. But since this existence exists as i experience it, then, i conclude that definitely there must be a Giver of Existence. Since this existence declares that every thing is continuously coming into existence with perfect harmony, order, wisdom, knowledge, purpose, mercy, meaningfully, choice etc., under the witnessing of these qualities of the things, i witness that this Creator must be Absolute. I DO NOT CLAIM TO KNOW THE ABSOLUTE BUT I CONFIRM THAT THE ABSOLUTE EXISTS. THAT IS WHAT I CALL GOD, THE CREATOR, THE TRANSENDENTAL BEING, EVER PRESENT WITH HIS ACT OF CREATION IN THIS UNIVERSE. EVERY THING MUST BE CREATED BY HIM ALONE.
That is “La ilaha illallah” We are sure of the truthfulness of this statement. That is why we call ourselves “believers in God and submitters to this truth: muslims”.
I really enjoyed going through your “Reflections on Time.” I did the corrections you offered, thank you very much again. Your criticisms were extremely useful and mind opening for me. May Allah reward you with whatever you are HOPING from HIM.
May God’s peace and blessings be with you forever.
Your br. ali
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